So it is ok for the state to bludgeon its citizens to death?

Its very easy to blame the police for hitting him with a baton but really there is plenty of blame to share around, Tomlinson himself had at least two underlying health issues that wouldve contributed towards his death, seriously who forces their way to the front of a protest march and gets stuck into the police when they have both heart and liver problems?

Secondly if the protestors hadnt exacerbated the situation by hurling objects at the police who were dragging him away (many of which hit Tomlinson) and then prevented him from getting the medical care he needed right away by making it impossible for the paramedics to get to him ASAP and then continued hurling stuff at the paramedics when they were working on him.

Im not saying the police are totally blameless here and im not saying that they should ban protest marches but as long as a percentage of people in these marches dont know how to behave themselves its always going to lead to incidents like this.

As with our recent match at Colwyn Bay the police may not handle situations like these well but there is no smoke without fire, if people dont give the police an excuse to use their batons then nobody will get hurt.

I was at the gate trying to get out of the match with my lad,if i had been beaten to death by the police,would i have been to blame?

No, but the people who started the fight that caused the police to get involved in the first place would be.

pathetic.

are you a copper/grass or something?

Wow, do you have the reading and comprehension skills of a 9 year old or something?

Do you really think the police would go around hitting people with batons if everyone knew how to behave themselves? The police are in the wrong when they hit the wrong person but if the few idiots who do cause trouble knew how to behave then nobody would get hit at all.

I dont think i can put it in any more simple terms than that for you.

Don't think anyone 'bludgeoned' anyone to death in this case did they?
The guy got shoved over by a policeman and sadly died from internal bleeding and probably not helped by the other health issues he had

If everyone who ever shoved someone over got a lengthy spell in prison, you'd need prisons on every street corner.

if you have ever been to a protest or march then you will know your making yourself look a fool.

the police literally enjoy giving the public a good kicking, and will use any excuse to draw their batons and hit people knowing nothing will come of it.

Well, thats just not true.

you go to many large public demonstrations/marches jack?

Yes it is,

Individualy there are some good people in the Police, but collectively as the "Police Force" they are scum, utter scum.

Then behave yourself and dont give them an excuse.

You treat the police with respect and they treat you with respect - Fact.

If you have that kind of attitude towards them then you are more likely to get beaten up/arrested by them.

Ive been hit over the head by a copper for absolutely NOTHING and told to f**k of back to Cheshire you plastic scouser.

How did I deserve that ?

we dont live in an authoritarian state thomas, it is supposed to be a liberal democracy.

i cant believe your typing this stuff.

The dont call them Pigs for nothing !

As with any profession you get the occasional dickhead. 90% of coppers arent like that. Its the minority that tarnish the reputation of the rest. The good coppers dont get noticed for doing their jobs well whereas the bad ones are the ones who make the headlines and create the myth that all coppers are like that.

Living in a liberal decmocracy doesnt mean you have a licence to misbehave. We still have rules and laws in place and if people start breaking them the police will do what they think is the best way to deal with the situation. Sometimes they get it wrong, sometimes they get it spot on the same as anybody else in their jobs does.

Thought you said if you treat them with respect you wont get beaten up, except if he is not one of the good ones

ive heard it all now, justifying their mistakes!

its the police thomas, its not like the lady working at spar short changing someone 7 pence! when they make a mistake it can ruin peoples lives.

are you a copper?

I cant tell if that post is just naive or deliberately stupid.

If one bus driver beat you up after you bought your ticket would you think all bus drivers were bastards too?

roughly 140,000 coppers in the u.k

according to thomas, that makes 14,000 of them are bad.

Im not justifying their mistakes at all. But if you expect perfection from anybody you are going to be dissapointed

You can't just gloss over it by saying "mistakes happen". A guy has been shoved over who has subsequently died. If this kind of behaviour is typical of policing in this country, and there certainly seems to be some evidence to suggest it is, then it needs to be looked at, reviewed and altered.

The problem, I grant you, is with people who think that the police should only deal with the kind of crimes they don't commit. A lot of people who've been mixed up in police violence will have had it coming to them, but won't admit as such. That way, it's hard to tell who's telling the truth and who is wildly exaggerating.

Anyone who has been to large marches etc. will know just how violent Police can be, without any such need to be. Years ago I'm lead to believe that Police Officers were given respect and respected others, I wonder why that has all changed?

"Can I ask you a question Officer?"
"No, f**k off I don't like you" was the anwser I recieved at Colwyn Bay having never seen this officer before in my life.

The thing with respect going both ways is that it applies to groups as well as individuals. The same way a few bad coppers have people thinking they are all bastards, a few violent idiots in a football/protest crowd will have the police there treating the entire crowd as such. This creates a vicious circle where the more the police think the crowd are violent idiots the more they treat them as such and in return the crowd get more angry at the police causing them to become more angry with the crowd and so on and so on.

Any large event where there are lots of people gather and there is potential for a bit of violence is always going to attract idiots looking for a scrap be it a football match or a protest march. Its people like that who are the route cause of the problems.

Amazing how a Copper is never found guilty of anything isnt it ?

Funny how MANY, of the Officers did not have their ID Numbers on isnt it ?

Why would that be, do you think ?

Like people who moan about the stationary police cars checking the speed of drivers on the roads. They say "why don't they go and catch real criminals?" etc without realising that it is a criminal offence to drive over the speeding limit and that they'll be the "real criminals" when they cause death by their speeding.

That goes for 99% of protests mate, and I'm sure it was the same for the Derby. They can get away with murder (quite literally incases) and who have they to anwser too? Themselves in the form of the IPCC. It's very rare a copper will be found guilty of assault, manslaughter, murder of a member of public.

Yes we ALL break the law, and that includes you Mancot, however I dont see what relevence it has to this thread ?

We just had the G20 in Toronto and the protesters burned police cars and smashed a large number of shop fronts. They are now up in arms because some of them were arrested and kept in jail overnight.....amazing.

Peaceful and reasoned protests can be effective, Violent ones rarely succeed.

Just my old fashioned opinion.

It has been an interesting week for police in the media. You are wrong there. The guy who got shot by Moat is a credit to the police force. If only all of them were like him. Such a humble man just wanting to serve the public. Plenty of publicity on a good copper. You do see it, there was one down my way that would have made Billy Stewart proud with his fish like dive to catch a baby falling out of a block of flats.

And then you get the pure nasty coppers like the one you can plainly see in the disturbing footage of the protest. Anyone who has been in a vociferous crowd has seen them and many of us have experienced their untempered unchannelled indiscriminate spiteful and frequently violent wrath.

You have repeatedly suggested that if you don't want trouble, then you shouldn't be there looking for it. Mr Tomlinson was not part of the protest. He was a newspaper seller trying to make his way home. Utterly innocent. Actually I was reluctant to put that because a vociferous non-violent protestor would also be utterly innocent. The right to protest is a cornerstone of our democracy.

The eggshell skull rule applies, you take your victim as you find him. If your action is violent enough that it could cause death, regardless of pre-existing health conditions, then that is man-slaughter. That is the law. Oh, except if you are a police officer. They are the law enforcers. See the connection?

I'm afraid Jack it is true. I've been on many marches and protests including picket lines and have seen first hand the use of violence by our good and upstanding coppers. If your interested look into what was called the Battle of the Beanfield where the police just smashed up peoples homes.

Going back to the original thread,the problem lies with this particular incident,is firstly,the gentleman in question was asked by the Police to find another route home because of the demonstration,he refused,and took a belligerent attuitude with the Police, of course that does not condone what happened,but the problem with his health,and the difficulty in proving what actually caused his death is the problem,that it is why it would be difficult to prove if he was actually murdered (Or suffered manslaughter.)
I believe the Policeman in question is suspended,and according to one newspaper has had problems before.
I have had lots of occasions(Due to my type of work) to meet with the Police,i have a great respect for all the ones i have met,i don't dispute that there is the odd one who isn't up to the standards we expect from them.
But the trouble is,that in this country,the right to protest is abused time and time again by people who will join any cause just to have an excuse to have a go at the police,i'm afraid it is not helped by the likes of Tony Benn (Lord Stansgate) who has a pop at the Police every chance he gets.
Let's be honest,if we allowed "Peaceful" demonstrations without Police cover,all hell would break loose,they are in a no win situation!

That man had every effing right to go about his normal business and take whatever route he chose. It is called freedom. It is what we have here, and what North Koreans do not enjoy. Yes there can be trouble at protests. Violence is not excusable on either side, and those using it should be held to account. However, despite the trouble, this is an absolutely fundamental part of democracy and in no way should be changed other than better policing of such events.

Totally agree,demonstrations are a fundamental right in this country,men died in two World Wars for that right,but i'm afraid there are those who abuse it,and who's in the front line when it kicks of? The Police,as i said before they are in a no win situation.
What tends to be forgotten in these situations,is the Policemen who get hurt,and some who never work again,wouldn't it be nice if we had a country that had genuine peaceful demonstrations without the need of Police,they don't start the demonstrations,they are called to them as a part of their duty.

Some years ago I witnessed a student protest on a public street and off to one side there were several coppers trying to restrain one student for whatever reason. The force they used was WAY over the top with one or two of them obviously intent on imposing their own sort of 'justice' upon the poor lad. I happened to have a camera with me and as I tried to get a picture of the incident I was approached by a rather agitated police sergeant who demanded to see my press pass (I've never had one), and ordered me to put the camera away otherwise he would "do it" for me.

I was brought up to believe that the police were there to serve the public and protect us, but that incident turned that belief on its head and very little since has convinced me that they are anything but an enemy of the public.

Jean Charles de Menezes: How can an innocent man die in such a violent manner at the hands of the police and no one is held responsible? Police accounts were contradicted by witnesses, evidence was suppressed.

Indeed, scum, utter scum.

So please, please tell me what this poor, unfortunate man did wrong?
What made the police man with his shield, armour and baton decide that he was such a threat?
The copper involved has got such a massive amount of previous that it has become a total whitewash.
Shame on anyone that thinks otherwise. NFBF and any other, stop reading the Daily Mail, research it a little and it will make you weep with the injustice.
Bad copper gets away with it.......again

Deva Cat. My negative views of the police have been coloured by similar outrageous behaviour dealing with crowds. And that last poster was bang on the money.

Again, what has that to do with the Police, yet again, not being held responcible for their actions ?

Why do they take their IDs off, all the time ? Why would they need to do that ?

Considering these events are such a rare event, we all seem to have or know someone who has been treated dispicably by the Police.

The Police have become just another street gang hiding behing respectability, and im afraid if you believe otherwise you must have been fortunate.

Ps Have a look at the huge amount of Police brutality caught on FILM ( ie prooof ) on sites like Youtube and research what actions were taken agains the officers, you may be suprised.

This is how the CPS wormed their way out of this one. FACTS
Their statement...

'Possible charges
The first issue that the CPS considered was whether the actions of PC 'A' were lawful. Having analysed the available evidence very carefully, the CPS concluded that THERE IS SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE to provide a realistic prospect of proving that the actions of PC 'A' in striking Mr Tomlinson with his baton and then pushing him over constituted an assault. At the time of those acts, Mr Tomlinson did not pose a threat to PC 'A' or any other police officer. Whilst the officer was entitled to require Mr Tomlinson to move out of Royal Exchange, THERE IS SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE to provide a realistic prospect of proving that his actions were disproportionate and unjustified.'

Ok so these were the possible charges and basically reasons why not sought...

MANSLAUGHTER - Conflicting medical reports

ASSAULT OCCASIONING ABH - if the prosecution cannot prove a causal link between the push and Mr Tomlinson's death because of the conflict in the medical evidence, it follows that actual bodily harm cannot be proved either.

COMMON ASSAULT - Common assault does not require proof of injury, but it is subject to a strict six month time limit. That placed the CPS in a very difficult position because enquiries were continuing at the six month point and it would not have been possible to have brought any charge at that stage.

MISCONDUCT IN PUBLIC OFFICE - we (the CSA) have concluded that the conduct of PC 'A' did not meet the high threshold required to constitute the offence of misconduct in public office.

.....ABSOLUTE WHITEWASH, had it been you or me that struck a police officer that later died you can bet your bottom dollar you'd be looking down the wrong end of a 15 year stretch by now.

Remember this one Che?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgfuBgWVsV8

Disgusting.

No no mate, things like that just dont happen, and if they did they would be sacked and prosecuted.

I do NOT read the Daily Mail,as you see from my post,i am not condoning what the policeman did,i was trying to put some balance to the situation,i say again,it is wrong to label ALL Policemen as thugs.

If someone's pointing a gun and asks you to stop running, you don't keep on running.

what do you do? stand still and make it easier for them to shoot you?

You arouse suspicion by continuing to leg it when police officers are asking you to stop.

I remember hearing someone on five live who was in the tube train carriage in a live interview immediately after this happened. He said they sat next to him on the train and just pumped bullets into him.

Perhaps you may wish to re-consider your rose tinted view. FFS, how is it ever possible for the police to shoot an unarmed innocent man?

Mancot, your naivity has made me so angry. How many other people actually think like you? It really worries me.

That is shocking. It has always gone on, but fortunately they can be caught at it more often now. But who polices the police? Oh yeah, the police. Time for independence in the police complaints commission. It should not be run by the police.
God this makes me angry.

Obviously everyones views will be coloured by their own experiences. In my experience more often the police tend to be too lazy to get involved when it does kick off.

I can't believe some of the comments regarding this case. So the guy that got murdered by this copper was 'belligerent'? How do you work that one out? He wasn't part of the protest but a member of the public trying to go home. The police had sealed off all the roads that led to his house because they were illegally 'kettling' the crowd (which led to some of the kick offs in the first place). He walks past a group of police, hands in his pockets, head down and minding his own business when one thug in a blue uniform decided it would be fun to push him so hard his feet left the ground and he travelled a fair distance before landing heavily, hands still in pockets. Some of the protestors and a photographer nearby tried to go to his aid but were themselves threatened by the police. So much is fact, because luckily it was all filmed (otherwise the police would have denied everything or probably made up some lies about him attcking them or something).

So what happened after the event? Well a pathologist (freddy patel) who is likely to be soon struck off for incompetence (largely relating to previous cases where he backed up police stories that contradicted actual facts) said he died of a heart attack, whereas 2 later pathologists who performed autopsies said that he definately died from internal bleeding caused directly by the police assualt. But because of this difference in medical opinion the CPS scandalously decides not to prosecute - never mind that if a member of the public assaulted someone who then died of a heart attack they would be prosecuted for manslaughter regardless. Also, you need to remember that the CPS dragged out a simple decision on this when all the evidence was with thjem very quickly for so long that the copper can no longer be prosecuted for common assualt because that is now out of time.

No wonder the family are callling this a cover up and a whitewash - because that is precisely what it is. A police officer has literally got away with murder...