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> The "In" our "Out" of Europe debate is now up and , What will your decision be, and why?
Lobster
post Apr 26 2016, 10:54 PM
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When the Scottish referendum was taking place, it appeared pretty close for a long time, but the pro-independence side began to develop a nasty and aggressive undercurrent. In the end, I think this turned a lot of the undecided voters against the idea because they didn't want to be associated with it.

I think the same will happen here. I see benefits and threats in both staying and leaving, but the main politicians fronting the 'Leave' campaign are an intolerable bunch of old farts and I think we'll start hearing more and more casual xenophobia as the vote approaches. I think that the on-the-fence voter will probably therefore end up voting to stay in.
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Ben
post Apr 29 2016, 03:55 PM
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What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


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Lobster
post Apr 29 2016, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


You and bluesince72 are probably the two I agree most with on this thread, which is weird because you're on opposite sides of the debate.

I think you're right, people have a naive and misguided view of what leaving the EU would mean, seemingly thinking it would end all immigration, that European laws wouldn't affect us anymore and that we could trade with whoever we want. I don't think any of those things would change, or if they did it would be for the worse. The best argument for leaving is the one bluesince72 puts forward - that it isn't a very good union.
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Ben
post Apr 29 2016, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Apr 29 2016, 06:48 PM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


You and bluesince72 are probably the two I agree most with on this thread, which is weird because you're on opposite sides of the debate.

I think you're right, people have a naive and misguided view of what leaving the EU would mean, seemingly thinking it would end all immigration, that European laws wouldn't affect us anymore and that we could trade with whoever we want. I don't think any of those things would change, or if they did it would be for the worse. The best argument for leaving is the one bluesince72 puts forward - that it isn't a very good union.


It might not be a very good union, but that's my point really.

With us being so close and 50% of our trade going there the union is going to effect us, I'd much rather be in it though to try to drive it rather than a passenger having to go wherever it decides to take us.


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Neil Fishers Big...
post Apr 29 2016, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 07:32 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Apr 29 2016, 06:48 PM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


You and bluesince72 are probably the two I agree most with on this thread, which is weird because you're on opposite sides of the debate.

I think you're right, people have a naive and misguided view of what leaving the EU would mean, seemingly thinking it would end all immigration, that European laws wouldn't affect us anymore and that we could trade with whoever we want. I don't think any of those things would change, or if they did it would be for the worse. The best argument for leaving is the one bluesince72 puts forward - that it isn't a very good union.


It might not be a very good union, but that's my point really.

With us being so close and 50% of our trade going there the union is going to effect us, I'd much rather be in it though to try to drive it rather than a passenger having to go wherever it decides to take us.

Can someone actually tell me ow many millions a day we pay to be a part of this "club" and how much do we get back, and justify why I should continue to pay for this top heavy organisation that has never even had its own accounts audited?


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3mm
post May 4 2016, 08:43 AM
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Langley Mill Blu...
post May 5 2016, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?


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Canadian Exile
post May 5 2016, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 5 2016, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?

A lot of neo cutting and pasting going on as well. biggrin.gif


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Canadian Exile
post May 6 2016, 01:06 AM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ May 5 2016, 07:42 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 5 2016, 11:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 5 2016, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?

A lot of neo cutting and pasting going on as well. biggrin.gif



All very funny, but what about the remain/leave debate? £5 notes in brown envelopes please tongue.gif

I don't have a vote so am probably not allowed an opinion! Nevertheless I would vote stay if I could vote, much easier to effect change from inside rather than outside, and maybe more importantly there is a danger of being frozen out of international commerce and ending up as "Little England".....key neo rant.


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Neil Fishers Big...
post May 6 2016, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 6 2016, 02:06 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ May 5 2016, 07:42 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 5 2016, 11:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 5 2016, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?

A lot of neo cutting and pasting going on as well. biggrin.gif



All very funny, but what about the remain/leave debate? £5 notes in brown envelopes please tongue.gif

I don't have a vote so am probably not allowed an opinion! Nevertheless I would vote stay if I could vote, much easier to effect change from inside rather than outside, and maybe more importantly there is a danger of being frozen out of international commerce and ending up as "Little England".....key neo rant.

CE, "effect change?",all governments have had a try at affecting change, and little or nothing has been changed. I'm not convinced that the UK will become isolated, a lot of our trading partners couldn't afford not trade with us.
We need to take back control of our borders, control of our laws. EU rules and regulations we don't need.
£30 odd million paid to the unaudited Eurocrats every week, we have got far more useful ways of spending that money.


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Mancot Blue
post May 6 2016, 08:30 PM
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Quite correct on your last point, Chris. I just don't trust this shower with it and the millions more they'd chest out of society's vulnerable.

With regards the referendum, I still don't feel I know enough to vote conclusively if it was to take place today but I would err towards a Remain vote currently.
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Langley Mill Blu...
post May 7 2016, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ May 6 2016, 03:07 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 6 2016, 02:06 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ May 5 2016, 07:42 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 5 2016, 11:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 5 2016, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?

A lot of neo cutting and pasting going on as well. biggrin.gif



All very funny, but what about the remain/leave debate? £5 notes in brown envelopes please tongue.gif

I don't have a vote so am probably not allowed an opinion! Nevertheless I would vote stay if I could vote, much easier to effect change from inside rather than outside, and maybe more importantly there is a danger of being frozen out of international commerce and ending up as "Little England".....key neo rant.

CE, "effect change?",all governments have had a try at affecting change, and little or nothing has been changed. I'm not convinced that the UK will become isolated, a lot of our trading partners couldn't afford not trade with us.
We need to take back control of our borders, control of our laws. EU rules and regulations we don't need.
£30 odd million paid to the unaudited Eurocrats every week, we have got far more useful ways of spending that money.


This seems to be behind many people wanting to vote 'out'
I wonder if the reality will be worse than we have now. I doubt many of our neighbours, if we were to leave, would do much to help prevent migrants wanting to reach the UK.


--------------------
You've got nothing to say and your saying it TOO LOUD!
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+Quote Post
CHESTER68
post May 7 2016, 08:26 PM
Post #63


CHESTER68
******

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Posts: 1894
Joined: 16-February 03
From: CHESTER
Member No.: 156



QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 7 2016, 09:16 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ May 6 2016, 03:07 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 6 2016, 02:06 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ May 5 2016, 07:42 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 5 2016, 11:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 5 2016, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?

A lot of neo cutting and pasting going on as well. biggrin.gif



All very funny, but what about the remain/leave debate? £5 notes in brown envelopes please tongue.gif

I don't have a vote so am probably not allowed an opinion! Nevertheless I would vote stay if I could vote, much easier to effect change from inside rather than outside, and maybe more importantly there is a danger of being frozen out of international commerce and ending up as "Little England".....key neo rant.

CE, "effect change?",all governments have had a try at affecting change, and little or nothing has been changed. I'm not convinced that the UK will become isolated, a lot of our trading partners couldn't afford not trade with us.
We need to take back control of our borders, control of our laws. EU rules and regulations we don't need.
£30 odd million paid to the unaudited Eurocrats every week, we have got far more useful ways of spending that money.


This seems to be behind many people wanting to vote 'out'
I wonder if the reality will be worse than we have now. I doubt many of our neighbours, if we were to leave, would do much to help prevent migrants wanting to reach the UK.

Out. Take our borders back..If you ain't got the paperwork you ain't coming in..


--------------------
The older I get the less tolerant I get.
FTG
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+Quote Post
open yer eyes ma...
post May 10 2016, 11:28 AM
Post #64


Devachat Fantasy Football Champion 09/10
********

Group: DC Members
Posts: 6854
Joined: 15-March 04
From: A town called Malice
Member No.: 850



QUOTE (CHESTER68 @ May 7 2016, 09:26 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 7 2016, 09:16 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ May 6 2016, 03:07 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 6 2016, 02:06 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ May 5 2016, 07:42 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 5 2016, 11:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 5 2016, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?

A lot of neo cutting and pasting going on as well. biggrin.gif



All very funny, but what about the remain/leave debate? £5 notes in brown envelopes please tongue.gif

I don't have a vote so am probably not allowed an opinion! Nevertheless I would vote stay if I could vote, much easier to effect change from inside rather than outside, and maybe more importantly there is a danger of being frozen out of international commerce and ending up as "Little England".....key neo rant.

CE, "effect change?",all governments have had a try at affecting change, and little or nothing has been changed. I'm not convinced that the UK will become isolated, a lot of our trading partners couldn't afford not trade with us.
We need to take back control of our borders, control of our laws. EU rules and regulations we don't need.
£30 odd million paid to the unaudited Eurocrats every week, we have got far more useful ways of spending that money.


This seems to be behind many people wanting to vote 'out'
I wonder if the reality will be worse than we have now. I doubt many of our neighbours, if we were to leave, would do much to help prevent migrants wanting to reach the UK.

Out. Take our borders back..If you ain't got the paperwork you ain't coming in..

Genuine question- How will you check the "paperwork" is correct, and if it is correct and i say i am on holiday here, again how will you check whether i stay or go ?


--------------------
Down on their knees
Begging us please
Praying that we don't exist

We exist
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Neil Fishers Big...
post May 10 2016, 12:17 PM
Post #65


Club Director
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Posts: 19678
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Penymynydd
Member No.: 2595



QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ May 10 2016, 12:28 PM) *
QUOTE (CHESTER68 @ May 7 2016, 09:26 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 7 2016, 09:16 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ May 6 2016, 03:07 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 6 2016, 02:06 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ May 5 2016, 07:42 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 5 2016, 11:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 5 2016, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?

A lot of neo cutting and pasting going on as well. biggrin.gif



All very funny, but what about the remain/leave debate? £5 notes in brown envelopes please tongue.gif

I don't have a vote so am probably not allowed an opinion! Nevertheless I would vote stay if I could vote, much easier to effect change from inside rather than outside, and maybe more importantly there is a danger of being frozen out of international commerce and ending up as "Little England".....key neo rant.

CE, "effect change?",all governments have had a try at affecting change, and little or nothing has been changed. I'm not convinced that the UK will become isolated, a lot of our trading partners couldn't afford not trade with us.
We need to take back control of our borders, control of our laws. EU rules and regulations we don't need.
£30 odd million paid to the unaudited Eurocrats every week, we have got far more useful ways of spending that money.


This seems to be behind many people wanting to vote 'out'
I wonder if the reality will be worse than we have now. I doubt many of our neighbours, if we were to leave, would do much to help prevent migrants wanting to reach the UK.

Out. Take our borders back..If you ain't got the paperwork you ain't coming in..

Genuine question- How will you check the "paperwork" is correct, and if it is correct and i say i am on holiday here, again how will you check whether i stay or go ?

Have you ever seen that TV programme about Australian airports and customs control? It can be done .


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NEIL FISHER I AM NOT WORTHY
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open yer eyes ma...
post May 11 2016, 08:38 AM
Post #66


Devachat Fantasy Football Champion 09/10
********

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Posts: 6854
Joined: 15-March 04
From: A town called Malice
Member No.: 850



Yeah cos the 3 people they show getting stopped on each programme is all there ever is on each flight rolleyes.gif
Not to mention that no-one ever enters Australia by boat.

This Governement cant even get an agreement to pay Junior doctors what they deserve, the NHS has been slashed, Disabled people are thrown on the scrap heap with job cuts and benefit allowances scrapped, libraries closing, health centres closing, the police and fire services facing more cuts, not to mention we hardly have a coastguard anymore.
If you think that 30 million each week paid to the EU is not cost effective, wait until you come out of it and see how much it will cost to man our borders effectively, because once we pull out, the officials at Calais will simply walk away and tell us to get on with it.

Or we could make some money back from an occasional half hour documentary telling us that Krystna has tried to get in on her husbands passport and she is explaining its not her fault she looks like a bloke, and Miklos has been very naughty and brought some vegetables in from a field in Krakow.


--------------------
Down on their knees
Begging us please
Praying that we don't exist

We exist
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+Quote Post
Lobster
post May 11 2016, 09:18 AM
Post #67


Just one fool among the shower
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Joined: 26-February 03
From: Wirral
Member No.: 203



QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ May 11 2016, 09:38 AM) *
Yeah cos the 3 people they show getting stopped on each programme is all there ever is on each flight rolleyes.gif
Not to mention that no-one ever enters Australia by boat.

This Governement cant even get an agreement to pay Junior doctors what they deserve, the NHS has been slashed, Disabled people are thrown on the scrap heap with job cuts and benefit allowances scrapped, libraries closing, health centres closing, the police and fire services facing more cuts, not to mention we hardly have a coastguard anymore.
If you think that 30 million each week paid to the EU is not cost effective, wait until you come out of it and see how much it will cost to man our borders effectively, because once we pull out, the officials at Calais will simply walk away and tell us to get on with it.

Or we could make some money back from an occasional half hour documentary telling us that Krystna has tried to get in on her husbands passport and she is explaining its not her fault she looks like a bloke, and Miklos has been very naughty and brought some vegetables in from a field in Krakow.


I suspect this as well. The only reason France is regulating Calais at all is because it's an EU border and they're obliged to.

Any guesses which European country has the highest percentage of immigrants? It's Switzerland - which of course is not an EU country. You only have to look at their football team - Shaqiri, Xhaka, Rodriguez, not many French or German names are there?

I think there are arguments for leaving the EU, but the main reason most people will give for it is immigration. These people are going to be very disappointed, and perhaps need to accept that we're in the 21st century now and it should be easier for people to live and work in a different part of the world.
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shunter blue
post May 11 2016, 09:35 AM
Post #68


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From: Newton
Member No.: 9054



QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 6 2016, 02:06 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ May 5 2016, 07:42 PM) *
QUOTE (Canadian Exile @ May 5 2016, 11:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Langley Mill Blue @ May 5 2016, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Apr 30 2016, 02:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Ben @ Apr 29 2016, 04:55 PM) *
What I really don't understand is what people think voting leave will achieve.

Many base their argument on immigration, or having to abide with EU laws, however, leaving will change none of this.

If we did leave, and we wanted a trade agreement with the EU (which would be essential for any company exporting or importing with the EU) then we would still need to abide with the majority of EU law AND have to accept the free movement of people (just like Norway and Switzerland do now).

So in reality, voting to leave will be actually handing the EU EVEN MORE power and control over the UK as we would no longer be able to negotiate deals and changes within the EU.

There is no way that the EU will allow the UK (and our companies) to have a commercial advantage over EU companies, the whole idea of trade agreements is that is creates a level playing field, so we will be left with a choice, accept the laws of the EU and the free movement of people, or have no trade agreement which would cripple our economy.

And that isn't scare mongering any more than telling a child that touching a hot fire will hurt them.


That last line insults the readers intelligence. You can do better than that.

I make no apology for copying and pasting parts of my earlier posts.

Far too many people on the left are putting their collective heads in the sand by supporting the remain campaign, betraying all that democratic socialism/social democracy has stood for. A bottom up , democratic , united Europe would be great, but it is a Utopian dream far removed from the reality of the really existing EU. The EU is a top down elite run neoliberal club, and a left wing neoliberal is an oxymoron!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

I don't want to sign up to a trade deal with the EU if/when we leave, and it has nothing to do with immigration, that is the right wing position, I offer a left wing argument.

It makes no sense to claim that the EU nations will put tariffs on our exports, as any retaliation would hurt them far more, the UK runs a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU! Can you imagine Germany deliberately hurting BMW and Porsche just to attempt to coerce the UK into signing up to the single market? The whole line of argument about HAVING to join the single market is nonsense on stilts, the USA, Canada , China , South Korea etc etc have no trouble trading with the EU from outside the EEA

We have the WTO for free trade negations, and once outside the EU will have our own independent vote once again. Talking of trade deals , Do you really want to risk having democracy permanently rendered impotent by TTIP? An agreement so good for us that its contents are veiled in secrecy. Wake up, this is THE issue, at least for those of us on the left.

We should not be cowed by government propaganda, remember who they are, and what their agenda is, its a neoliberal government, full of millionaires with city connections, arguing that we should stay in an elite led neoliberal club, never mind that the second neoliberal experiment(1979-2008) has failed just as the first did (1918 - 1939). They are owned and paid for by the corporations and banks, and it is in the interests of corporations and banks to have a globalized corporatocracy, NAFTA, EU single market, TTP , TTIP all steps towards their ultimate aim of suppressing democratic efficacy.

I will vote leave, as it is the first step in fighting neoliberalism, an economic agenda embedded in every EU treaty since Maastricht. And the hush hush TTIP agenda, their anti democratic corporate end game, a result of which we would lose economic sovereignty for ever, our democracy would be a meaningless sham. This point is often countered by 'well the Tories could sign a bilateral TTIP like agreement with the USA, yes they could, however, the next Labour government could terminate that agreement, but ONLY if they are free to do it, that is outside the EU. As EU members we would need a unanimous vote of all 28 states to terminate TTIP if it is signed, and that is never going to happen! TTIP, if it is signed (incredibly Donald Trump could be our Savior on this), will likely be signed BEFORE the next UK general election.

Another reason is that I want nothing to do with an organisation that treated the Greek people with such disdain, European Union? What a joke! Union = collective unity, and should mean backing and supporting ALL the peoples of the EU. Time to leave, it was a great idea, but a combination of nationalism, bad economic theory, and incompetence has left it broken beyond repair.

Vote LEAVE!


Definitely the most times I've seen 'Neoliberal' used in one post.... Does he win £5?

A lot of neo cutting and pasting going on as well. biggrin.gif



All very funny, but what about the remain/leave debate? £5 notes in brown envelopes please tongue.gif

I don't have a vote so am probably not allowed an opinion! Nevertheless I would vote stay if I could vote, much easier to effect change from inside rather than outside, and maybe more importantly there is a danger of being frozen out of international commerce and ending up as "Little England".....key neo rant.


I read a neo rant on here yesterday and to be perfectly honest I didn't know how to reply because I didn't understand a word of it, so I thought the best thing to do was just read the uncoded, plain speaking, understandable posts. I do believe that the xenophobes arguments don't stack up. Stay in for me.
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Phil Babb
post May 11 2016, 10:40 AM
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We will still be part of Europe, it's not like we're going to move.

From what I've read, the Pro's outweigh the Cons.

I'll touch on immigration by saying - We want immigrants here, its part of the thriving economy but not any tom dick or harry (well, Abdul, Mohammed or Ali). We want those who have qualifications and who can add to the economy and not strain it. People bang on about the Australia type of system, and you can see why. With being open to all EU Countries at the moment, you have people coming over here (can't blame them I suppose for quality of life) without any credibility, don't speak a word of the language and what appears to seem to be given the world.

Voting OUT won't be a quick change, but, I do believe it will give us a stronger independence of picking and choosing who does enter the country.

Business need not worry either - we'll be able to broker better deals than we currently have now. Okay, there's going to be some things that may go slightly up, but won't be a great deal.

The idea of a United States of Europe worries me. We are governed enough by the french/german politics and I think it's time to Leave the EU.

VOTE OUT.


As a day to day jobber though, we won't be effected either way really. Why a political party haven't said "right, we'll slash fuel taxes if you vote us in" - that'd get the votes in.
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open yer eyes ma...
post May 11 2016, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE (Phil Babb @ May 11 2016, 11:40 AM) *
We will still be part of Europe, it's not like we're going to move.

From what I've read, the Pro's outweigh the Cons.

I'll touch on immigration by saying - We want immigrants here, its part of the thriving economy but not any tom dick or harry (well, Abdul, Mohammed or Ali). We want those who have qualifications and who can add to the economy and not strain it. People bang on about the Australia type of system, and you can see why. With being open to all EU Countries at the moment, you have people coming over here (can't blame them I suppose for quality of life) without any credibility, don't speak a word of the language and what appears to seem to be given the world.

Voting OUT won't be a quick change, but, I do believe it will give us a stronger independence of picking and choosing who does enter the country.

Business need not worry either - we'll be able to broker better deals than we currently have now. Okay, there's going to be some things that may go slightly up, but won't be a great deal.

The idea of a United States of Europe worries me. We are governed enough by the french/german politics and I think it's time to Leave the EU.

VOTE OUT.


As a day to day jobber though, we won't be effected either way really. Why a political party haven't said "right, we'll slash fuel taxes if you vote us in" - that'd get the votes in.

I dont get this love in with Australia and the way they handle immigration, they also require low skilled low paid immigrants and even advertise for them.

http://au.greekreporter.com/2012/03/13/up-...abbie-shortage/


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Phil Babb
post May 11 2016, 01:19 PM
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The people will still be vetted etc though.

What I was trying to get at is that there is a system in place to be accepted into the country.

Them Taxi Drivers were needed - brought over and used.

I bet, there was a quota of what boxes they had to tick to be successful though.
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Deva Chanter
post May 11 2016, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ May 11 2016, 10:18 AM) *
QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ May 11 2016, 09:38 AM) *
Yeah cos the 3 people they show getting stopped on each programme is all there ever is on each flight rolleyes.gif
Not to mention that no-one ever enters Australia by boat.

This Governement cant even get an agreement to pay Junior doctors what they deserve, the NHS has been slashed, Disabled people are thrown on the scrap heap with job cuts and benefit allowances scrapped, libraries closing, health centres closing, the police and fire services facing more cuts, not to mention we hardly have a coastguard anymore.
If you think that 30 million each week paid to the EU is not cost effective, wait until you come out of it and see how much it will cost to man our borders effectively, because once we pull out, the officials at Calais will simply walk away and tell us to get on with it.

Or we could make some money back from an occasional half hour documentary telling us that Krystna has tried to get in on her husbands passport and she is explaining its not her fault she looks like a bloke, and Miklos has been very naughty and brought some vegetables in from a field in Krakow.


I suspect this as well. The only reason France is regulating Calais at all is because it's an EU border and they're obliged to.

Any guesses which European country has the highest percentage of immigrants? It's Switzerland - which of course is not an EU country. You only have to look at their football team - Shaqiri, Xhaka, Rodriguez, not many French or German names are there?

I think there are arguments for leaving the EU, but the main reason most people will give for it is immigration. These people are going to be very disappointed, and perhaps need to accept that we're in the 21st century now and it should be easier for people to live and work in a different part of the world.


This argument about Calais is utter nonsense. The idea that the French will just walk away and let them all through is utterly preposterous.

It's just another example of the pathetic scaremongering from the Remain camp, wheeling out Francois Hollande to tell us that the border controls might end if we leave. He wouldn't dare and everyone knows it.


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3mm
post May 17 2016, 12:40 PM
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Why is the UK going to pay £2 billion to Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey to help them join the EU?

And when Turkey's 76 million population join the EU later this year, they will be granted Visa-Free travel.

Vote leave


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angel of the nor...
post May 23 2016, 12:19 PM
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Simple out for me.


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Neil Fishers Big...
post May 23 2016, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE (angel of the north @ May 23 2016, 01:19 PM) *
Simple out for me.

Sandi Toksvig and a load of "Leftie Luvies" want us to stay in, that's even more reason for me to vote OUT! rolleyes.gif


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