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> The "In" our "Out" of Europe debate is now up and , What will your decision be, and why?
1midfield genera...
post Feb 25 2016, 01:57 PM
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I am voting to stay in. I class myself as Anglo/Irish and European.
The consequences of an exit are this: The pound has already lost 20% of its value against the dollar and would fall further, against the dollar and euro.
Exit would almost certainly, tip our anaemic growth, into recession and could lead to a further Scottish referendum and the break up of the U.K.
What you would be left with then, is England and a 'little England mentality' and you can keep that!
The main problem, is not the E.U, but the missive inequality that lies, at the heart of our society and E.U exit wont alter that (coupled with German/ U.K driven austerity).
I don't want any restrictions, on where I can live or work, in Europe, so if the U.K., votes to leave, I with claim joint Republic of Ireland citizenship.
Although, on the positive side, at least the Conservative party, is tearing itself apart, over the issue.

This post has been edited by 1midfield general: Feb 25 2016, 01:58 PM
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Derry Blue
post Feb 25 2016, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (1midfield general @ Feb 25 2016, 01:57 PM) *
I am voting to stay in. I class myself as Anglo/Irish and European.
The consequences of an exit are this: The pound has already lost 20% of its value against the dollar and would fall further, against the dollar and euro.
Exit would almost certainly, tip our anaemic growth, into recession and could lead to a further Scottish referendum and the break up of the U.K.
What you would be left with then, is England and a 'little England mentality' and you can keep that!
The main problem, is not the E.U, but the missive inequality that lies, at the heart of our society and E.U exit wont alter that (coupled with German/ U.K driven austerity).
I don't want any restrictions, on where I can live or work, in Europe, so if the U.K., votes to leave, I with claim joint Republic of Ireland citizenship.
Although, on the positive side, at least the Conservative party, is tearing itself apart, over the issue.

Explain how Scotland leaving the UK is such a bad thing. When they got their independence vote we should have had a referendum about whether we wanted to keep them.
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post Feb 25 2016, 05:25 PM
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The possibility of the UK leaving the EU is not the only factor affecting the current performance of the pound; the American market and its performance in comparison with the European market is also influential.

Banks are doing contingency for a potential exit and the decrease, for the moment at least, "should not be viewed as an entirely negative development, as the much longed-for rebalancing of the economy probably requires a significantly lower exchange rate", according to a chief UK economist.

This post has been edited by Handbridge Blue: Feb 25 2016, 05:32 PM
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1midfield genera...
post Feb 25 2016, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Feb 25 2016, 03:05 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Feb 25 2016, 01:57 PM) *
I am voting to stay in. I class myself as Anglo/Irish and European.
The consequences of an exit are this: The pound has already lost 20% of its value against the dollar and would fall further, against the dollar and euro.
Exit would almost certainly, tip our anaemic growth, into recession and could lead to a further Scottish referendum and the break up of the U.K.
What you would be left with then, is England and a 'little England mentality' and you can keep that!
The main problem, is not the E.U, but the missive inequality that lies, at the heart of our society and E.U exit wont alter that (coupled with German/ U.K driven austerity).
I don't want any restrictions, on where I can live or work, in Europe, so if the U.K., votes to leave, I with claim joint Republic of Ireland citizenship.
Although, on the positive side, at least the Conservative party, is tearing itself apart, over the issue.

Explain how Scotland leaving the UK is such a bad thing. When they got their independence vote we should have had a referendum about whether we wanted to keep them.



As I said, we will be reduced to England and a 'little England mentality', and you can keep that!
Coming from a Celtic background, I appreciate that the U.K and being British ,is more than just England and its class driven, social structure.
And lets be honest, this referendum, is not about sovereignty, it is about placating the right wing of the conservative party.
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post Feb 26 2016, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Feb 25 2016, 10:09 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 24 2016, 02:31 PM) *
QUOTE (iandyChesterCity @ Feb 24 2016, 01:27 PM) *
out, there has to be real fears over the financial stability of not just Greece, but Italy, Spain and even France.

Agreed, plus the billions we are having to pay as a member, that money could better spent on the needs of this country.
Also may I broach the subject of immigration (without being called a racist) seeing the problem of the camps in Calais and elsewhere, of people queuing up to get into this country, like it or not, that problem has to be addressed sometime.
Both the main parties said at the last Election, that on the doorstep it was the number one concern of voters, and it seems, still is.

I'm not sure in Britain today you can be concerned about immigration without being considered a racist.


Of course you can. There are valid concerns about overpopulation, and personally I've no time for anyone who moves to another country and makes no effort at all to learn the language, observe the laws and integrate - sadly there's nobody more guilty of this that Brits though!

The problem is that fears about immigration are so often expressed in an ignorant and small-minded way. The Calais situation for example - how many events have happened to lead up to this? Why are people only bothered when it affects them? We had an at best foolish war in Iraq, a dictatorship in Syria, ISIS terrorising anyone over there who doesn't fit in with their distorted and violent interpretation of Islam, and people so desperate to leave that they risk their lives over dangerous seas, or gambling everything on a people smuggler being compassionate enough not to rob them of everything they've got and leave them to die. 71 people, including a baby, were shut in a lorry in Austria and left to die a slow and horrible death. One man even tried to grab onto the wings of a plane to leave his country.

These are the things that make me angry, personally, but a lot of people in Britain aren't bothered because it doesn't affect them. We turn a blind eye to all of this, and then when the end product of refugees entering the UK becomes apparent, it's only then that they speak out. I think that's so self-centred it's untrue.

It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer wins an election with the tagline "can't someone else do it?". A lot of people just seem to think it's somebody else's problem. If everybody thinks that, what happens then?

The UK is, for all it's faults, a civilised country and a good place to live. As such, we should take the lead in reacting
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post Feb 26 2016, 01:28 PM
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As a country, we are naturally right-leaning (the last Labour government being 'tory-lite') and i think there is something in being an island that creates a protectionist outlook.

I think we have a 'look after number 1' agenda. The greater good etc is being stamped out by right wing ideals of benefit scroungers and bloody immigrants. These aren't the tory toffs they once were, these are your average working class people - look at the rise of UKIP and their demographic. A frightening number of young people associate themselves to UKIP ideals. The 'i work hard why should i pay for them' argument is plastered over fb and daytime television. Then we have council house issues, lack of stock perceived to be down to increased immigration and young girls getting pregnant just to get a free house.

This is why it annoys me seeing criticism of conservative members, as if anything, they are far more moderate than the many members general public (Grayling excluded).


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1midfield genera...
post Feb 26 2016, 09:01 PM
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All very well and good, but what replaces the imperfect E.U.? Rampant Nationalism? There are massive dangers in that.
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post Feb 27 2016, 09:56 AM
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The debate is often on the wrong basis. A lot of people talk as though we are voting if there should be an EU or not, but this is not the choice.

What you are voting for is should we be part of it. The truth is that without us the EU could move faster on political and financial union, so what you are actually voting for is should we become a small island next to a massive trading block?

Even if we voted to leave, we would need to trade with the EU and that would mean that we would need to abide with most of the EU laws and regulations in order to allow us to trade, however, we would have no say on what those laws and regulations are. Not to mention the financial payments we would need to pay into the EU but without getting any of the financial benefits.

If we did vote to leave then the process is that the other 27 nations would decide on what terms to offer us when we leave, if these cannot be agreed within 2 years then we leave with no terms, i.e. potentially no trade agreements.

I find it funny that people say we could have stronger trading with countries like the US, and yet the US have told us on many occasions that we would be weakened if we leave.

The EU is not perfect, far from it, but we need to be in it in order to change it. If you vote to leave then the EU could get worse, and yet we we would still need to mainly do what 'they' say.

Many Eurosceptics say we would be getting power back, but the opposite is true. If we leave we would lose any power in the EU, yet we would be dancing to their tune in order to keep trading.



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post Feb 27 2016, 09:18 PM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Feb 27 2016, 02:19 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Feb 26 2016, 09:01 PM) *
All very well and good, but what replaces the imperfect E.U.? Rampant Nationalism? There are massive dangers in that.


We are not being asked to vote on the EU's future, just whether we wish to stay a part of it.

Personally, I have serious doubts about whether the EU can survive in its current form, and find it hard to see any process by which it could be meaningfully reformed.

I despise nationalism; any consistent left wing world view HAS to be internationalist. But there seems to be a collective blindness to the core contradiction at the heart of the European ‘Union’, Nationalism!

Nationalism is the cancer that is destroying the European project. It is the reason they tried monetary union before political union, it is the reason the Euro was built on castles of sand, as it is impossible for any currency area to survive without fiscal transfers between its surplus and deficit regions, and why it WILL implode. It is why we don’t have a democratic European Union, every nationalist starts from the position that a truly democratic EU would see ‘my countries citizens’ possibly outvoted every time by the combined votes of the electorates in the other 27 states.

Nationalism is rising alarmingly again in Europe BECAUSE of the EU's contradictions. Nationalism persisted because European citizens have been unable to shed their nation state centric world view.

Perhaps the whole project was just too utopian; the nation state has been with us since the treaties of Westphalia were signed in 1648. Nationalism can never be extinguished by top down, bureaucratic, elite impositions, creating institutions that break the direct democratic link between an electorate and many of those in positions of power.

Tony Benn summed this problem up succinctly: ‘’one can ask five questions: 1. what power do you have; 2. where did you get it; 3. in whose interests do you exercise it; 4. to whom are you accountable; and, 5. how can we get rid of you? Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

Go ask the Greek people about the EU and democracy! Put their experience in the context of the rise of nationalist sentiments across Europe, and the phenomena should be totally understandable. It is highlighted for us on the news, as almost daily another state in the ‘union’ closes its borders and builds barbed wire fencing, to keep fleeing refugees out of their country, beggar my neighbour writ large.

I do not want to be a part of this sick institution any longer.

What I want to know is, how is it that any normal business has to declare their accounts, at least on yearly basis.
The Euro Commission has NEVER had its accounts audited!
So all the billions we pay to them could be going anyway for all we know.
Definitely still out for me, I have not heard anything to change my mind, and as soon as I heard that Kinnock (Who if you remember did a complete u turn on Europe, and along with his wife and another anti-European Barbara Castle all got jobs on the gravy train eventually.) said he was pro Europe, that made me even more committed to OUT.
Europe needs us more than we need them! We are an island race, we managed without them before, we will do so again.


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post Feb 28 2016, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 27 2016, 09:18 PM) *
........ and as soon as I heard that Kinnock (Who if you remember did a complete u turn on Europe, and along with his wife and another anti-European Barbara Castle all got jobs on the gravy train eventually.) said he was pro Europe, that made me even more committed to OUT............

I've got the same logic. If Cameron wants us in, we must be better off OUT. Simples.

And talking of u-turns, if we do come out, it will of course be a complete reverse of Tory policy as they took us in in the first place wink.gif


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post Feb 28 2016, 02:41 PM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 28 2016, 12:56 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 27 2016, 09:18 PM) *
........ and as soon as I heard that Kinnock (Who if you remember did a complete u turn on Europe, and along with his wife and another anti-European Barbara Castle all got jobs on the gravy train eventually.) said he was pro Europe, that made me even more committed to OUT............

I've got the same logic. If Cameron wants us in, we must be better off OUT. Simples.

And talking of u-turns, if we do come out, it will of course be a complete reverse of Tory policy as they took us in in the first place wink.gif

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Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 28 2016, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (Barney Daniels Big Toe @ Feb 28 2016, 02:41 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 28 2016, 12:56 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 27 2016, 09:18 PM) *
........ and as soon as I heard that Kinnock (Who if you remember did a complete u turn on Europe, and along with his wife and another anti-European Barbara Castle all got jobs on the gravy train eventually.) said he was pro Europe, that made me even more committed to OUT............

I've got the same logic. If Cameron wants us in, we must be better off OUT. Simples.

And talking of u-turns, if we do come out, it will of course be a complete reverse of Tory policy as they took us in in the first place wink.gif

love it
You and 3mm concocted that one up in the bar after the match today! biggrin.gif
To get to the point, no they didn't, they called a referendum, in which the people decided. Unlike the Labour Party who were refusing to have a referendum had they got in .


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post Feb 28 2016, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 28 2016, 03:35 PM) *
QUOTE (Barney Daniels Big Toe @ Feb 28 2016, 02:41 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 28 2016, 12:56 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 27 2016, 09:18 PM) *
........ and as soon as I heard that Kinnock (Who if you remember did a complete u turn on Europe, and along with his wife and another anti-European Barbara Castle all got jobs on the gravy train eventually.) said he was pro Europe, that made me even more committed to OUT............

I've got the same logic. If Cameron wants us in, we must be better off OUT. Simples.

And talking of u-turns, if we do come out, it will of course be a complete reverse of Tory policy as they took us in in the first place wink.gif

love it
You and 3mm concocted that one up in the bar after the match today! biggrin.gif
To get to the point, no they didn't, they called a referendum, in which the people decided. Unlike the Labour Party who were refusing to have a referendum had they got in .


NFBF is right, and it is disgraceful that some (but not all) Labour MPs have been opposed to even putting this to the British people top decide - what on earth is wrong with democracy after all, particularly over the 'we know best' professional politician class. And I will say in fairness to the majority Tory position when we last had a referendum on this some 41 years ago(!) that the EU didn't exist then and the EEC was a very different kind of body mainly concerned with trade tariffs and avoiding disputes between the countries in it. This of course is a world away (for good or bad) to what the EU is today. However I will also say this. I don't normally agree with Farage, but it is the case that without Farage and UKIP constantly acting as a threat to the Tories on Europe that I very much doubt Cameron would have agreed to hold such a referendum given it is so full of internal dangers for him whichever way the vote goes.


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Richard
post Mar 1 2016, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE (captain duff @ Feb 28 2016, 06:04 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 28 2016, 03:35 PM) *
QUOTE (Barney Daniels Big Toe @ Feb 28 2016, 02:41 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 28 2016, 12:56 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 27 2016, 09:18 PM) *
........ and as soon as I heard that Kinnock (Who if you remember did a complete u turn on Europe, and along with his wife and another anti-European Barbara Castle all got jobs on the gravy train eventually.) said he was pro Europe, that made me even more committed to OUT............

I've got the same logic. If Cameron wants us in, we must be better off OUT. Simples.

And talking of u-turns, if we do come out, it will of course be a complete reverse of Tory policy as they took us in in the first place wink.gif

love it
You and 3mm concocted that one up in the bar after the match today! biggrin.gif
To get to the point, no they didn't, they called a referendum, in which the people decided. Unlike the Labour Party who were refusing to have a referendum had they got in .


NFBF is right, and it is disgraceful that some (but not all) Labour MPs have been opposed to even putting this to the British people top decide - what on earth is wrong with democracy after all, particularly over the 'we know best' professional politician class. And I will say in fairness to the majority Tory position when we last had a referendum on this some 41 years ago(!) that the EU didn't exist then and the EEC was a very different kind of body mainly concerned with trade tariffs and avoiding disputes between the countries in it. This of course is a world away (for good or bad) to what the EU is today. However I will also say this. I don't normally agree with Farage, but it is the case that without Farage and UKIP constantly acting as a threat to the Tories on Europe that I very much doubt Cameron would have agreed to hold such a referendum given it is so full of internal dangers for him whichever way the vote goes.


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post Mar 1 2016, 02:48 PM
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out for me. I want the UK parliment voted for by UK citizens to rule the UK. Not a bunch of unelected unaccountable eurocrats ruling the UK. I'm all for trade agreements, and working together on crime and the enviroment I just do not wish to be ruled by europe.
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post Mar 8 2016, 05:43 PM
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It will be interesting see how the deal to fast track Turkey into the EU will affect the debate. Turkey has a population about the same as Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria and Poland put together. It also has an authoritarian almost fascist government. At least people now know when they vote that this is part of the deal.
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post Mar 9 2016, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (Spider Mellor Scores @ Mar 8 2016, 05:43 PM) *
It will be interesting see how the deal to fast track Turkey into the EU will affect the debate. Turkey has a population about the same as Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria and Poland put together. It also has an authoritarian almost fascist government. At least people now know when they vote that this is part of the deal.

First Turkey have to agree to take a large amount of the refugees adrift in Europe, which they will, as they are desperate to join the EU, which would mean another large amount of immigrants wanting to come to the UK.
Parts of this country are not coping with the current immigration into this country without allowing more in.
That is not a political point, it's fact.


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post Mar 10 2016, 08:22 AM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Mar 9 2016, 10:52 PM) *
QUOTE (Spider Mellor Scores @ Mar 8 2016, 05:43 PM) *
It will be interesting see how the deal to fast track Turkey into the EU will affect the debate. Turkey has a population about the same as Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria and Poland put together. It also has an authoritarian almost fascist government. At least people now know when they vote that this is part of the deal.

First Turkey have to agree to take a large amount of the refugees adrift in Europe, which they will, as they are desperate to join the EU, which would mean another large amount of immigrants wanting to come to the UK.
Parts of this country are not coping with the current immigration into this country without allowing more in.
That is not a political point, it's fact.


Do you not think every country in Europe's thinking that though?

The UK doesn't have a special right to ignore a situation it helped create.
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post Mar 10 2016, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Mar 9 2016, 10:52 PM) *
QUOTE (Spider Mellor Scores @ Mar 8 2016, 05:43 PM) *
It will be interesting see how the deal to fast track Turkey into the EU will affect the debate. Turkey has a population about the same as Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria and Poland put together. It also has an authoritarian almost fascist government. At least people now know when they vote that this is part of the deal.

First Turkey have to agree to take a large amount of the refugees adrift in Europe, which they will, as they are desperate to join the EU, which would mean another large amount of immigrants wanting to come to the UK.
Parts of this country are not coping with the current immigration into this country without allowing more in.
That is not a political point, it's fact.


Would it be possible for you to provide some evidence of the 'fact' that you are purporting to be true?


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post Mar 10 2016, 02:41 PM
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QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Mar 10 2016, 01:42 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Mar 9 2016, 10:52 PM) *
QUOTE (Spider Mellor Scores @ Mar 8 2016, 05:43 PM) *
It will be interesting see how the deal to fast track Turkey into the EU will affect the debate. Turkey has a population about the same as Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria and Poland put together. It also has an authoritarian almost fascist government. At least people now know when they vote that this is part of the deal.
First Turkey have to agree to take a large amount of the refugees adrift in Europe, which they will, as they are desperate to join the EU, which would mean another large amount of immigrants wanting to come to the UK. Parts of this country are not coping with the current immigration into this country without allowing more in. That is not a political point, it's fact.
Would it be possible for you to provide some evidence of the 'fact' that you are purporting to be true?





I think he is referring to the document noted in this piece by the Telegraph:




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post Mar 10 2016, 09:03 PM
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One day we will have a worldwide union, with a worldwide parliament acting in the best interests of mankind. But as a global society we're nowhere near mature enough for this and possibly won't be for centuries.

A European Union could be an important stepping stone to this, but it needs to be coherent and functional. Right now it is not. Maybe it's simply ahead of its time? Perhaps the politicians are racing ahead with a vision that the broader infrastructure and ecology can not support?



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post Apr 12 2016, 07:56 AM
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Why has the government deemed it necessary to spend £9m sending 'In' propaganda to every house in the country? If I was undecided, this is the sort of behaviour that would swing me towards an 'Out' vote, to be honest.

What a shocking waste of money to get a pamphlet sent to me telling me "what the government believes". Do they realise that only 1 in 3 voters voted for them anyway? A lot of people have no faith in them at all, and the suggestion that they believe something is more or less an incentive to believe the opposite.
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post Apr 12 2016, 08:50 AM
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QUOTE (Midnight Rider @ Mar 10 2016, 10:03 PM) *
One day we will have a worldwide union, with a worldwide parliament acting in the best interests of mankind. But as a global society we're nowhere near mature enough for this and possibly won't be for centuries.

A European Union could be an important stepping stone to this, but it needs to be coherent and functional. Right now it is not. Maybe it's simply ahead of its time? Perhaps the politicians are racing ahead with a vision that the broader infrastructure and ecology can not support?

I like Star Trek too.


QUOTE (XWWB @ Apr 12 2016, 08:56 AM) *
Why has the government deemed it necessary to spend £9m sending 'In' propaganda to every house in the country? If I was undecided, this is the sort of behaviour that would swing me towards an 'Out' vote, to be honest.

What a shocking waste of money to get a pamphlet sent to me telling me "what the government believes". Do they realise that only 1 in 3 voters voted for them anyway? A lot of people have no faith in them at all, and the suggestion that they believe something is more or less an incentive to believe the opposite.

Got my little book yesterday, and you're right, it is a waste of money. We already know what the government believes, surely the money could have been better spent elsewhere.

EU referendum: £9m taxpayer-funded publicity blitz pushes case to remain


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Phil Babb
post Apr 25 2016, 02:44 PM
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A Resounding OUT from me.

Hopefully the Scots will have their little FREEDOM referendum and do one as well.
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Neil Fishers Big...
post Apr 26 2016, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE (Phil Babb @ Apr 25 2016, 03:44 PM) *
A Resounding OUT from me.

Hopefully the Scots will have their little FREEDOM referendum and do one as well.

......more and more every day I'm OUT! I see Sturgeon has copied a Lady Thatcher slogan for her local election campaign, this, coming from someone who says the reason she got into politics was because of Lady Thatcher! Sooner Scotland goes on its own the better!


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