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> The "In" our "Out" of Europe debate is now up and , What will your decision be, and why?
Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 21 2016, 08:52 PM
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I'm still for out, reasons to follow.


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mused
post Feb 21 2016, 08:58 PM
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It's out for me and always has been. Although I've got to be honest and say I'm worried. Sometimes it's better the devil you know.


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Lobster
post Feb 21 2016, 09:13 PM
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To be honest, I haven't a clue and I don't think this is the sort of thing Joe Bloggs should be deciding. We elect our governments and politicians and they should be making these decisions with the enhanced knowledge and information they have access to, not fobbing them off on the general public. Leave the public to vote on Strictly and X-Factor and take responsibility for your own decisions, Cameron!
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mused
post Feb 21 2016, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Feb 21 2016, 09:13 PM) *
To be honest, I haven't a clue and I don't think this is the sort of thing Joe Bloggs should be deciding. We elect our governments and politicians and they should be making these decisions with the enhanced knowledge and information they have access to, not fobbing them off on the general public. Leave the public to vote on Strictly and X-Factor and take responsibility for your own decisions, Cameron!

I wouldn't have confidence in those tools to choose my under crackers for me. But I completely understand your sentiments XWWB.


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McSeal
post Feb 22 2016, 12:36 AM
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I think all you've got to do is look at the clowns fronting the 'out' campaign. Boris, Farrage, 'Calamity' Grayling and George Galloway. If those nutters think we should leave, I'm definitely voting 'in'.

NB: Well done Bluesince72 on managing to squeeze 'neoliberalism' into yet another post!
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Che Guevara
post Feb 22 2016, 07:22 AM
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Out for me.


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post Feb 22 2016, 07:26 AM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Feb 21 2016, 10:58 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Feb 21 2016, 09:13 PM) *
To be honest, I haven't a clue and I don't think this is the sort of thing Joe Bloggs should be deciding. We elect our governments and politicians and they should be making these decisions with the enhanced knowledge and information they have access to, not fobbing them off on the general public. Leave the public to vote on Strictly and X-Factor and take responsibility for your own decisions, Cameron!



I agree with you, in that I don't agree with holding referenda on any issue. We live in a representative democracy not a direct democracy. I also think you are spot on as to why politicians call them, they abnegate their responsibilities for taking contentious decisions. If it goes wrong they can blame the British people!

As for the politicians having greater knowledge I strongly disagree, just listen to them debate, for example, economics or foreign policy, you know we have elected a clear majority of blockheads, or listen to Hillary Benn's incoherent arguments for remaining in the EU! Tony would be ashamed.


I meant in theory at least. I share your lack of confidence in them, but nobody should be better placed than them to make a decision. They get to go places we don't and access information we can't have.

The UK public includes many politically knowledgable and astute people like yourself, but the majority don't know what they're doing here and I include myself in that. Listening to the sort of reasons people give, it seems like a lot will vote 'out' on the basis that an Italian waiter short-changed them 30 years ago, while others like myself will probably vote 'in' based on a misguided 'can't we just get along?' mentality, which I suppose is no better. Perhaps the most honest thing I could do is spoil my ballot, but that seems a bit arsey.
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Lobster
post Feb 22 2016, 07:41 AM
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QUOTE (McSeal @ Feb 22 2016, 12:36 AM) *
I think all you've got to do is look at the clowns fronting the 'out' campaign. Boris, Farrage, 'Calamity' Grayling and George Galloway. If those nutters think we should leave, I'm definitely voting 'in'.

NB: Well done Bluesince72 on managing to squeeze 'neoliberalism' into yet another post!


Yes, it does seem like most of the divvies are on the 'out' side of the debate. Add Duncan-Smith and Gove to your list.

And another thing, if it's a referendum and it's down to the UK public to decide, why are all these politicians still talking? They seem absolutely bursting to tell us what THEY think!
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3mm
post Feb 22 2016, 08:50 AM
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I wish they'd have a public referendum on fox hunting. Even considering bringing it back is absolutely disgraceful.


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captain duff
post Feb 22 2016, 11:32 AM
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Out for me, and as a Labour Party member I've signed up to the Labour Leave campaign.

That said I am still open to persuasion as there are so many pros and cons (and unknowns) on both sides of the debate. In fact Mark Steel in his Indy column last week again got it right when he said watching the in and out campaigns was a bit like when Man Utd play Chelsea, you desperately hope it would be possible for both sides to lose at the same time: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-ref...m-a6883441.html


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captain duff
post Feb 22 2016, 11:35 AM
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Incidentally, I don't always agree with George Galloway, but this is good stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym7ENcDeE3w


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Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 22 2016, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 22 2016, 08:50 AM) *
I wish they'd have a public referendum on fox hunting. Even considering bringing it back is absolutely disgraceful.

I don't know quite what fox hunting has got to do with the Euro date, but I thought it was banned in this country 3mm?
I personally have no feelings either way on fox hunting, as I have my own corner to fight, enough to say, by all means have a referendum on it, only if the question is a fair one and both sides of the argument are given the same amount of media coverage.
As this would NOT happen I don't see the point in wasting public money on it.
Before anybody else chips in to question my logic, I have suffered so called "debates" and biased coverage on my own trade to know well enough what would happen if 3mm got his way.


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Lobster
post Feb 22 2016, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 22 2016, 12:38 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 22 2016, 08:50 AM) *
I wish they'd have a public referendum on fox hunting. Even considering bringing it back is absolutely disgraceful.

I don't know quite what fox hunting has got to do with the Euro date, but I thought it was banned in this country 3mm?


This coming from the man who turned a thread about student loan hikes into one about DEFRA and veganism biggrin.gif
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Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 22 2016, 01:55 PM
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laugh.gif
QUOTE (XWWB @ Feb 22 2016, 12:43 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 22 2016, 12:38 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 22 2016, 08:50 AM) *
I wish they'd have a public referendum on fox hunting. Even considering bringing it back is absolutely disgraceful.

I don't know quite what fox hunting has got to do with the Euro date, but I thought it was banned in this country 3mm?


This coming from the man who turned a thread about student loan hikes into one about DEFRA and veganism biggrin.gif

laugh.gif


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3mm
post Feb 22 2016, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 22 2016, 12:38 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 22 2016, 08:50 AM) *
I wish they'd have a public referendum on fox hunting. Even considering bringing it back is absolutely disgraceful.

I don't know quite what fox hunting has got to do with the Euro date, but I thought it was banned in this country 3mm?
I personally have no feelings either way on fox hunting, as I have my own corner to fight, enough to say, by all means have a referendum on it, only if the question is a fair one and both sides of the argument are given the same amount of media coverage.
As this would NOT happen I don't see the point in wasting public money on it.
Before anybody else chips in to question my logic, I have suffered so called "debates" and biased coverage on my own trade to know well enough what would happen if 3mm got his way.

Currently it's banned, but as you know, our wonderful, caring government want to change that so the well-to-do's in our society can ride round watching dogs rip foxes apart for pleasure... Conservative Pledges

Others

Giving Parliament a free vote on repeal of the Hunting Act.


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Deva Chanter
post Feb 22 2016, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (McSeal @ Feb 22 2016, 12:36 AM) *
I think all you've got to do is look at the clowns fronting the 'out' campaign. Boris, Farrage, 'Calamity' Grayling and George Galloway. If those nutters think we should leave, I'm definitely voting 'in'.

NB: Well done Bluesince72 on managing to squeeze 'neoliberalism' into yet another post!


As opposed to the likes of Blair, Cameron, Osbourne, Mandelson, Goldman Sachs who are so helpfully backing the Remain camp? LOL

Give me Farage and Galloway every day of the week over that vile bunch of gauleiters.

For what its worth, I'll be voting to leave, my reasons for doing so were adumbrated perfectly in bluesince72's earlier posts.

As an aside, I think Galloway could be a rather astute recruit for the Leave campaign; even his fiercest critics agree that he is one of the country's finest orators and a persuasive one at that. He's also by far and away the most influential figure on the left campaigning to leave and could be integral in reaching those many millions of people in this country whom don't identify with the rest of the figures in the Leave camp.

This post has been edited by Deva Chanter: Feb 22 2016, 10:49 PM


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Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 22 2016, 11:42 PM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 22 2016, 08:21 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 22 2016, 12:38 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 22 2016, 08:50 AM) *
I wish they'd have a public referendum on fox hunting. Even considering bringing it back is absolutely disgraceful.

I don't know quite what fox hunting has got to do with the Euro date, but I thought it was banned in this country 3mm?
I personally have no feelings either way on fox hunting, as I have my own corner to fight, enough to say, by all means have a referendum on it, only if the question is a fair one and both sides of the argument are given the same amount of media coverage.
As this would NOT happen I don't see the point in wasting public money on it.
Before anybody else chips in to question my logic, I have suffered so called "debates" and biased coverage on my own trade to know well enough what would happen if 3mm got his way.

Currently it's banned, but as you know, our wonderful, caring government want to change that so the well-to-do's in our society can ride round watching dogs rip foxes apart for pleasure... Conservative Pledges

Others

Giving Parliament a free vote on repeal of the Hunting Act.

No they don't, they want to offer a free vote on it, and I think you will find that it isn't just the "well to dos" in society who hunt, what about fishing 3mm, Your thoughts?


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Bambi_CCFC
post Feb 23 2016, 10:20 PM
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The fact is, the Union is no longer what we voted to join back in 1973. There were some sound economic arguments for us joining and I'm glad we did.

However, although there are still good reasons for staying in I don't like what it's become - or what it may yet become. Also, we're not as ecomonically backward now as we were in the early 1970's - the thought of being 'alone' seems less daunting I think to us here in 2016.

As you may have guessed, I'm not totally sure what I'll do in June. I'd love us to leave in theory, but in practise I do worry we may end up worse off long term.

The most frustrating thing is that you can't get a straight answer to any question. I know that's normal for politics but for something as big as this it'd be nice get some analysis that won't be picked apart & twisted by either side.

This post has been edited by Bambi_CCFC: Feb 23 2016, 10:22 PM


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Che Guevara
post Feb 23 2016, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Feb 22 2016, 05:43 PM) *
QUOTE (McSeal @ Feb 22 2016, 12:36 AM) *
I think all you've got to do is look at the clowns fronting the 'out' campaign. Boris, Farrage, 'Calamity' Grayling and George Galloway. If those nutters think we should leave, I'm definitely voting 'in'.

NB: Well done Bluesince72 on managing to squeeze 'neoliberalism' into yet another post!


I did not squeeze it in, it is central to my argument! I know neoliberalism is not a word that is ever used on the dumbed down, ideologically myopic, mainstream media, but I will continue to use it.

If we blindly follow Camoron, and stick with the status quo, the EU, a key pillar of a failed economic system that is on life support after not being consigned to the dustbin of history, as it should have been, following 2008, and we have TTIP enacted, we will all live to regret it. Corporations and the banking kleptocrats will thrive, at the expense of our NHS, our public services, and any meaningful democratic efficacy available to the British electorate, whoever we vote for.

ALERT: Goldman Sachs are funding the pro EU campaign!!!!! That should tell us all everything we need to know!!!!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

As for the 'nutters' list, none compare with Camoron, has Britain ever had a more mediocre PM?

George Galloway is not popular in Scotland because he opposed independence, but not only is he not a clown or a nutter, he is in my view one the most persuasive, credible and intelligent voices in British politics today, it is another sad legacy of New Labour that Galloway was forced out of the Labour party.

XWWB, you usually make intelligent contributions to debates on DC, so I can't understand why you think you can't make a reasoned decision on which way to vote. Your argument against the referendum is a slippery slope, if the people are not qualified to choose on a single issue, in or out of the EU, then we must ask, how can they ever be trusted to decide on multiple issues involved in an general election? People give all sorts of odd reasons why they vote one way or another, that is democracy, as Churchill said, the very worst of systems for choosing our leaders, except for all the others.

I think we worked that one out on our own.


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McSeal
post Feb 24 2016, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Feb 22 2016, 05:43 PM) *
QUOTE (McSeal @ Feb 22 2016, 12:36 AM) *
I think all you've got to do is look at the clowns fronting the 'out' campaign. Boris, Farrage, 'Calamity' Grayling and George Galloway. If those nutters think we should leave, I'm definitely voting 'in'.

NB: Well done Bluesince72 on managing to squeeze 'neoliberalism' into yet another post!


I did not squeeze it in, it is central to my argument! I know neoliberalism is not a word that is ever used on the dumbed down, ideologically myopic, mainstream media, but I will continue to use it.

If we blindly follow Camoron, and stick with the status quo, the EU, a key pillar of a failed economic system that is on life support after not being consigned to the dustbin of history, as it should have been, following 2008, and we have TTIP enacted, we will all live to regret it. Corporations and the banking kleptocrats will thrive, at the expense of our NHS, our public services, and any meaningful democratic efficacy available to the British electorate, whoever we vote for.

ALERT: Goldman Sachs are funding the pro EU campaign!!!!! That should tell us all everything we need to know!!!!

There is a collective delusion on much of the left, that the EU can be reformed to become a social Europe, a position I used to hold. We have to wake up and face the truth that it will never happen, the direction of movement has been going the other way for three decades, and is firmly embedded in EU treaties.

As for the 'nutters' list, none compare with Camoron, has Britain ever had a more mediocre PM?

George Galloway is not popular in Scotland because he opposed independence, but not only is he not a clown or a nutter, he is in my view one the most persuasive, credible and intelligent voices in British politics today, it is another sad legacy of New Labour that Galloway was forced out of the Labour party.

XWWB, you usually make intelligent contributions to debates on DC, so I can't understand why you think you can't make a reasoned decision on which way to vote. Your argument against the referendum is a slippery slope, if the people are not qualified to choose on a single issue, in or out of the EU, then we must ask, how can they ever be trusted to decide on multiple issues involved in an general election? People give all sorts of odd reasons why they vote one way or another, that is democracy, as Churchill said, the very worst of systems for choosing our leaders, except for all the others.

Here is the persuasive, credible and intelligent George Galloway in action.

Can't believe you've resorted to calling Cameron 'Camoron'. I bet you used the 'Bliar' epithet too. It reminds me of the time I folded a (Peter) Morrison sticker so that it read 'Moron' and stuck it in our window. In my defence, I was only 11 at the time.
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post Feb 24 2016, 01:27 PM
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out, there has to be real fears over the financial stability of not just Greece, but Italy, Spain and even France.


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Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 24 2016, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (iandyChesterCity @ Feb 24 2016, 01:27 PM) *
out, there has to be real fears over the financial stability of not just Greece, but Italy, Spain and even France.

Agreed, plus the billions we are having to pay as a member, that money could better spent on the needs of this country.
Also may I broach the subject of immigration (without being called a racist) seeing the problem of the camps in Calais and elsewhere, of people queuing up to get into this country, like it or not, that problem has to be addressed sometime.
Both the main parties said at the last Election, that on the doorstep it was the number one concern of voters, and it seems, still is.



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Lobster
post Feb 24 2016, 02:58 PM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 24 2016, 02:31 PM) *
QUOTE (iandyChesterCity @ Feb 24 2016, 01:27 PM) *
out, there has to be real fears over the financial stability of not just Greece, but Italy, Spain and even France.

Agreed, plus the billions we are having to pay as a member, that money could better spent on the needs of this country.
Also may I broach the subject of immigration (without being called a racist) seeing the problem of the camps in Calais and elsewhere, of people queuing up to get into this country, like it or not, that problem has to be addressed sometime.
Both the main parties said at the last Election, that on the doorstep it was the number one concern of voters, and it seems, still is.


Leaving the EU would probably not change that. Switzerland has taken in one of the highest numbers of Syrian refugees. I'm not certain, but I think non-EU countries like Norway and Iceland have largely the same immigration rules as EU ones.

I don't think what you've said is racist, but I think it is a little self-centred to think that we should just wash our hands of a situation that we've more than played a role in creating.
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Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 25 2016, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Feb 24 2016, 02:58 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 24 2016, 02:31 PM) *
QUOTE (iandyChesterCity @ Feb 24 2016, 01:27 PM) *
out, there has to be real fears over the financial stability of not just Greece, but Italy, Spain and even France.

Agreed, plus the billions we are having to pay as a member, that money could better spent on the needs of this country.
Also may I broach the subject of immigration (without being called a racist) seeing the problem of the camps in Calais and elsewhere, of people queuing up to get into this country, like it or not, that problem has to be addressed sometime.
Both the main parties said at the last Election, that on the doorstep it was the number one concern of voters, and it seems, still is.


Leaving the EU would probably not change that. Switzerland has taken in one of the highest numbers of Syrian refugees. I'm not certain, but I think non-EU countries like Norway and Iceland have largely the same immigration rules as EU ones.

I don't think what you've said is racist, but I think it is a little self-centred to think that we should just wash our hands of a situation that we've more than played a role in creating.

It wasn't really a personal opinion that I was making, it is the feeling of an ever growing number of people in this country, I wasn't particularly talking about the refugee situation either, but the problem of thousands of them now being allowed into Germany, Sweden and Austria are beginning to cause problems there already. I'm not sure how you handle that particular problem, but it seems the German Chancellors idea of "let them all in" wasn't the cleverest idea.


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Derry Blue
post Feb 25 2016, 10:09 AM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 24 2016, 02:31 PM) *
QUOTE (iandyChesterCity @ Feb 24 2016, 01:27 PM) *
out, there has to be real fears over the financial stability of not just Greece, but Italy, Spain and even France.

Agreed, plus the billions we are having to pay as a member, that money could better spent on the needs of this country.
Also may I broach the subject of immigration (without being called a racist) seeing the problem of the camps in Calais and elsewhere, of people queuing up to get into this country, like it or not, that problem has to be addressed sometime.
Both the main parties said at the last Election, that on the doorstep it was the number one concern of voters, and it seems, still is.

I'm not sure in Britain today you can be concerned about immigration without being considered a racist.
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