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> Glad to see ..., Chelsea got beat tonight.
Ben
post Nov 23 2011, 09:41 PM
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Just goes to show, you can have a squad with a majority of players being from the same country as the club, have fan involvement/ownership, charge fans a reasonable amount to watch them etc and still be successful.


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Lobster
post Nov 24 2011, 12:53 AM
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The English clubs on the whole aren't doing all that well in the Champions League are they? Maybe it's because they're not all that good.

I used to almost always support the English sides in European football, now by and large I find it funny when they get knocked out.
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CO2
post Nov 24 2011, 09:05 AM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 24 2011, 12:53 AM) *
The English clubs on the whole aren't doing all that well in the Champions League are they? Maybe it's because they're not all that good.

I used to almost always support the English sides in European football, now by and large I find it funny when they get knocked out.

basically summed up by tevez and all the other jonny foreigners playing over here on massive wages but in reality, as long as they get paid couldnt give a fook for the pride of their clubs...

i was starting to think the premiers**t was pulling away from the rest of europe (apart from Barca) but it looks like even with all the chicken farmers money they still arent very good....

as for chelsea, poor old AVB will be gone without being given the chance he was told he'd get. long term gain for short term pain doesnt come close because of the money involved and needing a "quick fix". A very good young up and coming manager will have been scared/ruined because of the greed of the big clubs...

give me a tense 1-0 against ashton any day of the week over a chomps league game..

cityscarf.gif


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iandyChesterCity
post Nov 24 2011, 01:35 PM
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most of the successful champions league teams have had an emphasis on home-grown players, looking at the bayerns, the uniteds, obviously the barcas out there.


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CO2
post Nov 24 2011, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (iandyChesterCity @ Nov 24 2011, 01:35 PM) *
most of the successful champions league teams have had an emphasis on home-grown players, looking at the bayerns, the uniteds, obviously the barcas out there.


ronaldo, nani, evra et al, all good salford lads...

united have been buying big like the rest of them for a long time..
yes they use to have beckhams, giggs etc but not for many a year now have they had a team dominated by anything other than off the shelf foreign players..


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iandyChesterCity
post Nov 24 2011, 02:35 PM
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same as ribery and arjen robben at bayern, dani alves and messi at barca and sneider and milito at inter, i'm not saying they had a team fully made up of home grown players but the spine of the team.


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bluemorf
post Nov 24 2011, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (CO2 @ Nov 24 2011, 02:08 PM) *
QUOTE (iandyChesterCity @ Nov 24 2011, 01:35 PM) *
most of the successful champions league teams have had an emphasis on home-grown players, looking at the bayerns, the uniteds, obviously the barcas out there.


ronaldo, nani, evra et al, all good salford lads...

united have been buying big like the rest of them for a long time..
yes they use to have beckhams, giggs etc but not for many a year now have they had a team dominated by anything other than off the shelf foreign players..


United have a large core of UK players though to be fair! Ferdinand, Jones, Smalling, Giggs, Carrick, Fletcher, Young, Rooney, Welbeck. Not all first team regulars admittedly, and not all at Utd when they won the Champs league, but i wouldnt describe them as dominated by off the shelf foreign players.

Arsenal , chelsea and Man city dont focus on this, and they havent done too well in the champs league recently (with the odd exception)
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a view from outs...
post Nov 24 2011, 03:10 PM
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Pedantic I know but in the interests of accuracy a couple of points. Firstly when the DBF (German Football Federation) introduced the 50+1 rule they also included a loophole which became known as the 'Lex Bayer' exemption. This states that - "If a commercial enterprise had been uninterruptedly and considerably supporting the sport of football at the parent club for 20 years prior to January 1, 1999", this enterprise could formally apply for the acquisition of a controlling interest in the football PLC. The exemption applied to Bayer Leverkusen and VfL Wolfsburg. Both Leverkusen and Wolfsburg started life as company teams and continue to be owned and financed by Bayer (the pharmaceutical giants and Volkswagen respectively) and are exempted from the 50+1 rule.

Secondly with regard to success in the European cup / Champions League. The relative lack of success has led some in Germany to question and even challenge the 50+1 rule, saying that it stops their clubs from competing on an equal footing with the Spanish and English Giants. Since 1999 one German club has won the cup, Bayern Munich in 2000-1. In total German clubs have reached the final on three occasions. English clubs have appeared in the finals seven times (including United v Chelsea) and won it twice. Spanish teams have appeared ( including Madrid v Valencia) seven times and won it on five occasions.

Having said all that in my opinion the German model is far better than any other in Europe for many reasons and not just because of fan ownership. These include the 50% limit on players wages, youth team policy, making clubs financially responsible, down to even limiting the number of season ticket holders a club can have to ensure that a substantial number of those without the means to buy a ST can still go and watch their team.
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bluesince72
post Nov 24 2011, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (a view from outside @ Nov 24 2011, 03:10 PM) *
Pedantic I know but in the interests of accuracy a couple of points. Firstly when the DBF (German Football Federation) introduced the 50+1 rule they also included a loophole which became known as the 'Lex Bayer' exemption. This states that - "If a commercial enterprise had been uninterruptedly and considerably supporting the sport of football at the parent club for 20 years prior to January 1, 1999", this enterprise could formally apply for the acquisition of a controlling interest in the football PLC. The exemption applied to Bayer Leverkusen and VfL Wolfsburg. Both Leverkusen and Wolfsburg started life as company teams and continue to be owned and financed by Bayer (the pharmaceutical giants and Volkswagen respectively) and are exempted from the 50+1 rule.

Secondly with regard to success in the European cup / Champions League. The relative lack of success has led some in Germany to question and even challenge the 50+1 rule, saying that it stops their clubs from competing on an equal footing with the Spanish and English Giants. Since 1999 one German club has won the cup, Bayern Munich in 2000-1. In total German clubs have reached the final on three occasions. English clubs have appeared in the finals seven times (including United v Chelsea) and won it twice. Spanish teams have appeared ( including Madrid v Valencia) seven times and won it on five occasions.

Having said all that in my opinion the German model is far better than any other in Europe for many reasons and not just because of fan ownership. These include the 50% limit on players wages, youth team policy, making clubs financially responsible, down to even limiting the number of season ticket holders a club can have to ensure that a substantial number of those without the means to buy a ST can still go and watch their team.


Excellent and informative post.

Totally agree, the German system isn't perfect, because of the exemptions and because it doesn't go far enough, but it works better than all its rivals, largest average gates of any top division in Europe and the cheapest ticket prices amongst Europe's strongest leagues.

What critics of the German system forget is that two most successful champions league clubs over recent decades, Barcelona and Real Madrid are 100% fan owned. Though both get huge financial windfalls from selling individual TV rights, something that damages competition nearly as much as billionaire sugar daddy owners.

The ending of individual club TV deals and going further than the German model, to 100% fan ownership, is probably the only route to bringing about fair competition and the chance for ambitious clubs to challenge the clubs that currently form Europe's elite.
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West Hampshire B...
post Nov 24 2011, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (bluemorf @ Nov 24 2011, 02:46 PM) *
QUOTE (CO2 @ Nov 24 2011, 02:08 PM) *
QUOTE (iandyChesterCity @ Nov 24 2011, 01:35 PM) *
most of the successful champions league teams have had an emphasis on home-grown players, looking at the bayerns, the uniteds, obviously the barcas out there.


ronaldo, nani, evra et al, all good salford lads...

united have been buying big like the rest of them for a long time..
yes they use to have beckhams, giggs etc but not for many a year now have they had a team dominated by anything other than off the shelf foreign players..


United have a large core of UK players though to be fair! Ferdinand, Jones, Smalling, Giggs, Carrick, Fletcher, Young, Rooney, Welbeck. Not all first team regulars admittedly, and not all at Utd when they won the Champs league, but i wouldnt describe them as dominated by off the shelf foreign players.

Arsenal , chelsea and Man city dont focus on this, and they havent done too well in the champs league recently (with the odd exception)


Off the shelf nonetheless and still down to spending power. Very few have broken through from their academy and made an impact in recent times, but even the academies seem to be full of foreign kids these days. Arsenal have had Wilshere and Gibbs, City Richards and Sturridge, whereas Chelsea have produced no-one.
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TomCCFC87
post Nov 25 2011, 03:03 PM
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Although no longer a Champions League club, Liverpool are a prime example of a team who had a great youth system but now rely almost exclusively on buying players. The last player from their youth ranks to establish himself as a first team regular was Steven Gerrard and that was over a decade ago now. Since then they have had the occasional player come through and get a handful of games but sooner or later they have all moved on to smaller clubs having not been able to establish themselves in the squad ahead of the imported players.
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ANDERS
post Nov 25 2011, 08:20 PM
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Regarding Chelsea, I was listening to the radio last night when the topic came up and some guy phoned in and basically said he thought a lot of the star players are spent, I agree.

Terry, Lampard & Drogba has always been the spine of that team and I think they're all past their best now, even when they were they weren't good enough to win it.


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tom - chesterr
post Nov 25 2011, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (ANDERS @ Nov 25 2011, 08:20 PM) *
Regarding Chelsea, I was listening to the radio last night when the topic came up and some guy phoned in and basically said he thought a lot of the star players are spent, I agree.

Terry, Lampard & Drogba has always been the spine of that team and I think they're all past their best now, even when they were they weren't good enough to win it.


I disagree, as much as i don't like chelsea just because they are going through a bad spell doesn't make the players bad. I think the three you mentioned are still very good players, especially drogba.


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ANDERS
post Nov 25 2011, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE (tom - chesterr @ Nov 25 2011, 08:27 PM) *
QUOTE (ANDERS @ Nov 25 2011, 08:20 PM) *
Regarding Chelsea, I was listening to the radio last night when the topic came up and some guy phoned in and basically said he thought a lot of the star players are spent, I agree.

Terry, Lampard & Drogba has always been the spine of that team and I think they're all past their best now, even when they were they weren't good enough to win it.


I disagree, as much as i don't like chelsea just because they are going through a bad spell doesn't make the players bad. I think the three you mentioned are still very good players, especially drogba.

From what I've seen this season not one of them look anywhere near as good as they used to be, Lampard & Drogba are both 33 now and to be honest I was amazed to realise Terry was as young as 30.


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West Hampshire B...
post Nov 25 2011, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (TomCCFC87 @ Nov 25 2011, 03:03 PM) *
Although no longer a Champions League club, Liverpool are a prime example of a team who had a great youth system but now rely almost exclusively on buying players. The last player from their youth ranks to establish himself as a first team regular was Steven Gerrard and that was over a decade ago now. Since then they have had the occasional player come through and get a handful of games but sooner or later they have all moved on to smaller clubs having not been able to establish themselves in the squad ahead of the imported players.


Kelly and Spearing have both made a number of appearances Liverpool's team. In Kelly's case I'm sure it would have been more if he hadn't been injured. Chelsea just don't produce anyone.
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