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> VAR (Video Assistant Referee) being used for first time tonight!
3mm
post Jan 8 2018, 10:17 AM
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The VAR (Video Assistant Referee) is to be used for the first time in a competitive club match in tonight's FA Cup 3rd round game between Brighton and Crystal Palace.

It's about time this technology was used in football, it works so well in all other sports. It may well stop illegal diving, pushing, holding etc, as players will know there's probably 7 or 8 cameras on them which will see virtually everything.

Will be very interesting watching tonight's game to see how it works.

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Lobster
post Jan 8 2018, 05:48 PM
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I think we have to accept that it's not going to solve everything. Incidents like the penalty Liverpool got against Everton last week, you can view them a million times from all different angles and people will still disagree on whether they should've been given. I think it may actually put even more pressure on refs.

If it can sort out obvious wrong decisions, it's a good thing I suppose. I just hope it doesn't end up overused or misused.
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The Annexe
post Jan 8 2018, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 8 2018, 10:17 AM) *
The VAR (Video Assistant Referee) is to be used for the first time in a competitive club match in tonight's FA Cup 3rd round game between Brighton and Crystal Palace.
It's about time this technology was used in football, it works so well in all other sports. It may well stop illegal diving, pushing, holding etc, as players will know there's probably 7 or 8 cameras on them which will see virtually everything.

You're an optimist. Not sure which sports you think it works well in, but any situation which requires human judgement (and those will be predominantly the ones targeted in soccer) will just become a convoluted mess. American Football is the closest equivalent which uses video technology extensively: it hasn't improved matters and is simply helping to make games very hard to watch. It will be even worse in soccer. 'Controversial' decisions are an integral part of sport, better to accept that and enjoy what's on offer.


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3mm
post Jan 9 2018, 09:17 AM
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QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 8 2018, 06:53 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 8 2018, 10:17 AM) *
The VAR (Video Assistant Referee) is to be used for the first time in a competitive club match in tonight's FA Cup 3rd round game between Brighton and Crystal Palace.
It's about time this technology was used in football, it works so well in all other sports. It may well stop illegal diving, pushing, holding etc, as players will know there's probably 7 or 8 cameras on them which will see virtually everything.

You're an optimist. Not sure which sports you think it works well in, but any situation which requires human judgement (and those will be predominantly the ones targeted in soccer) will just become a convoluted mess. American Football is the closest equivalent which uses video technology extensively: it hasn't improved matters and is simply helping to make games very hard to watch. It will be even worse in soccer. 'Controversial' decisions are an integral part of sport, better to accept that and enjoy what's on offer.

Rugby union, tennis, cricket for starters.

I don't enjoy seeing decisions such as Frank Lampard's 2010 World Cup "goal" against Germany not being given. The daft thing being that everyone watching on tv knew it was a goal but the referee/linesman didn't.

You're right about one thing, I am an optimist smile.gif


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Lobster
post Jan 9 2018, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 9 2018, 09:17 AM) *
QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 8 2018, 06:53 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 8 2018, 10:17 AM) *
The VAR (Video Assistant Referee) is to be used for the first time in a competitive club match in tonight's FA Cup 3rd round game between Brighton and Crystal Palace.
It's about time this technology was used in football, it works so well in all other sports. It may well stop illegal diving, pushing, holding etc, as players will know there's probably 7 or 8 cameras on them which will see virtually everything.

You're an optimist. Not sure which sports you think it works well in, but any situation which requires human judgement (and those will be predominantly the ones targeted in soccer) will just become a convoluted mess. American Football is the closest equivalent which uses video technology extensively: it hasn't improved matters and is simply helping to make games very hard to watch. It will be even worse in soccer. 'Controversial' decisions are an integral part of sport, better to accept that and enjoy what's on offer.

Rugby union, tennis, cricket for starters.

I don't enjoy seeing decisions such as Frank Lampard's 2010 World Cup "goal" against Germany not being given. The daft thing being that everyone watching on tv knew it was a goal but the referee/linesman didn't.

You're right about one thing, I am an optimist smile.gif


That shouldn't happen again in a top game because of goal-line technology. We don't need VAR for that.

I support goal-line technology because it's dealing with fact. Most other decisions on the pitch are opinion. My worry about VAR is that it will slow the game down and be abused. You could analyse almost any goal and find something wrong with it somewhere. I think we already talk about refereeing too much and this will probably escalate that when people realise that VAR will still result in unpopular and debatable decisions.

Rugby, tennis and especially cricket are slow-moving, stop-start sports. Football is fast-paced and is all about momentum.
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old boneze
post Jan 10 2018, 07:07 AM
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The use of VAR is severely restricted.

There has been a lot of misinformation in the media about VAR. Suggestions that it will stop illegal diving, pushing, holding etc. are wrong.

On 7th December 2017, the FA website stated that VARs were to be “trialled for clear and obvious errors, or serious missed incidents,
relating to specific incidents in three ‘game changing’ situations – goals, penalty/no penalty decisions and straight red cards, plus mistaken identity for red or yellow cards".

“The VAR automatically checks every such incident and if a clear and obvious error has occurred the referee is informed (and) can then confirm or change the original decision
based on the information from the VAR,” or look at “a replay on the side of the pitch".

"The original decision is only changed if it was clearly and obviously wrong.”

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3mm
post Jan 10 2018, 07:31 AM
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QUOTE (old boneze @ Jan 10 2018, 07:07 AM) *
The use of VAR is severely restricted.

There has been a lot of misinformation in the media about VAR. Suggestions that it will stop illegal diving, pushing, holding etc. are wrong.

On 7th December 2017, the FA website stated that VARs were to be “trialled for clear and obvious errors, or serious missed incidents,
relating to specific incidents in three ‘game changing’ situations – goals, penalty/no penalty decisions and straight red cards, plus mistaken identity for red or yellow cards".

“The VAR automatically checks every such incident and if a clear and obvious error has occurred the referee is informed (and) can then confirm or change the original decision
based on the information from the VAR,” or look at “a replay on the side of the pitch".

"The original decision is only changed if it was clearly and obviously wrong.”

So tell me what happens if a penalty is/isn't given due to diving, pushing, holding then? wink.gif


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The Annexe
post Jan 10 2018, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE (old boneze @ Jan 10 2018, 07:07 AM) *
The use of VAR is severely restricted.

Sadly that's how these things start out, with limited good intentions. I cited American Football earlier as the closest analogy: that's how it started out, intending to use VAR as a way of mitigating obvious errors. It soon mushroomed into micro-analysis of aspects that were a matter of opinion and referee judgement. It's essentially driven by tv becoming a significant part of the game,


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old boneze
post Jan 11 2018, 07:05 AM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 10 2018, 07:31 AM) *
QUOTE (old boneze @ Jan 10 2018, 07:07 AM) *
The use of VAR is severely restricted.

There has been a lot of misinformation in the media about VAR. Suggestions that it will stop illegal diving, pushing, holding etc. are wrong.

On 7th December 2017, the FA website stated that VARs were to be “trialled for clear and obvious errors, or serious missed incidents,
relating to specific incidents in three ‘game changing’ situations – goals, penalty/no penalty decisions and straight red cards, plus mistaken identity for red or yellow cards".

“The VAR automatically checks every such incident and if a clear and obvious error has occurred the referee is informed (and) can then confirm or change the original decision
based on the information from the VAR,” or look at “a replay on the side of the pitch".

"The original decision is only changed if it was clearly and obviously wrong.”

So tell me what happens if a penalty is/isn't given due to diving, pushing, holding then? wink.gif

Unless it is "a clear and obvious error", then the on-field decision will stand. The definition of "clear and obvious" is of itself a matter of opinion.
If there is any doubt, the VAR officials will not recommend the match referee to change his mind.
Bear in mind that the VAR officials will only check at normal speed. They will not study slow-mo video.


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3mm
post Jan 13 2018, 11:35 PM
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Interesting that Watford got a last minute equaliser today with a clear handball. VAR would have spotted it instantly.



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old boneze
post Jan 14 2018, 08:17 AM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 13 2018, 11:35 PM) *
Interesting that Watford got a last minute equaliser today with a clear handball. VAR would have spotted it instantly.

That's exactly the sort of situation that VAR is intended to cover.
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3mm
post Jan 17 2018, 10:34 AM
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Leicester v Fleetwood, history made, it works!


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Lobster
post Jan 17 2018, 01:00 PM
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For yesterday's goal, what would've happened if the ref had seen the linesman's flag go up and blown his whistle just as Iheanacho was about to put it in the net? Does VAR almost encourage referees to ignore their assistants and play on anyway, then review the footage afterwards? If so, do we need linesmen at all anymore given that they're mainly there for offsides?

I still think this will not go as smoothly as some people assume it will.
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post Jan 17 2018, 01:05 PM
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would Roberts have got his sending off overturned ?? very harsh decision IMO
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The Annexe
post Jan 17 2018, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (Lobster @ Jan 17 2018, 01:00 PM) *
I still think this will not go as smoothly as some people assume it will.

It won't. Every time there is a controversy (covered by tv) then VAR will be used to 'improve' things. It's a very short step to becoming a stop-start game with every major tackle/foul or incident being reviewed. TV viewers won't care, for 'live' fans it'll be awful. It will become another example of the 'Law of Unintended Consequences'.


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3mm
post Jan 17 2018, 03:20 PM
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If you want fast flowing uninterrupted football, why not do away with referees and linesmen altogether? Make it like Australian Rules football.

What VAR does is it gives you the correct decision. No point in having a faster game decided by incorrect decisions because people can’t wait a few seconds.


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The Annexe
post Jan 17 2018, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 17 2018, 03:20 PM) *
What VAR does is it gives you the correct decision. No point in having a faster game decided by incorrect decisions because people can’t wait a few seconds.

Most decisions are a matter of opinion (or interpretation), not fact. And you'll find it will become a matter of minutes, not seconds. Fortunately it'll never reach non-league (at least in my lifetime). smile.gif


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Che Guevara
post Jan 17 2018, 06:38 PM
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How many times do we watch a decision on TV, and disagree on an outcome ? It will make some decisions easier, but the majority will still be at the opinion of an individual and therefore controversial.


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3mm
post Jan 17 2018, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 17 2018, 05:45 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 17 2018, 03:20 PM) *
What VAR does is it gives you the correct decision. No point in having a faster game decided by incorrect decisions because people can’t wait a few seconds.

Most decisions are a matter of opinion (or interpretation), not fact. And you'll find it will become a matter of minutes, not seconds. Fortunately it'll never reach non-league (at least in my lifetime). smile.gif

Won't get down to our level for yonks, it took us years to get the sprays for marking 10 yards for free kicks. I personally think it'll get faster as they get used to using it. Can't see any decision taking minutes. A lot of decisions on Sky games are obvious with one replay.

Whether it's opinion or fact, in games where VAR is used it's an informed decision backed by technology, and not just a split-second call by a referee who sees an incident once at full speed, or partially sees something, or maybe doesn't even see it at all.


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The Annexe
post Jan 17 2018, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 17 2018, 06:48 PM) *
QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 17 2018, 05:45 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 17 2018, 03:20 PM) *
What VAR does is it gives you the correct decision. No point in having a faster game decided by incorrect decisions because people can’t wait a few seconds.

Most decisions are a matter of opinion (or interpretation), not fact. And you'll find it will become a matter of minutes, not seconds. Fortunately it'll never reach non-league (at least in my lifetime). smile.gif

Won't get down to our level for yonks, it took us years to get the sprays for marking 10 yards for free kicks. I personally think it'll get faster as they get used to using it. Can't see any decision taking minutes. A lot of decisions on Sky games are obvious with one replay.

Whether it's opinion or fact, in games where VAR is used it's an informed decision backed by technology, and not just a split-second call by a referee who sees an incident once at full speed, or partially sees something, or maybe doesn't even see it at all.

I doubt it will ever get down to our level. It's a 'made for tv audience' thing. I like your optimism, but I fear you're going to be disappointed with the consequences long term.


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post Jan 17 2018, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 17 2018, 07:54 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 17 2018, 06:48 PM) *
QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 17 2018, 05:45 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 17 2018, 03:20 PM) *
What VAR does is it gives you the correct decision. No point in having a faster game decided by incorrect decisions because people can’t wait a few seconds.

Most decisions are a matter of opinion (or interpretation), not fact. And you'll find it will become a matter of minutes, not seconds. Fortunately it'll never reach non-league (at least in my lifetime). smile.gif

Won't get down to our level for yonks, it took us years to get the sprays for marking 10 yards for free kicks. I personally think it'll get faster as they get used to using it. Can't see any decision taking minutes. A lot of decisions on Sky games are obvious with one replay.

Whether it's opinion or fact, in games where VAR is used it's an informed decision backed by technology, and not just a split-second call by a referee who sees an incident once at full speed, or partially sees something, or maybe doesn't even see it at all.

I doubt it will ever get down to our level. It's a 'made for tv audience' thing. I like your optimism, but I fear you're going to be disappointed with the consequences long term.


what level will that be I wonder ? there are good arguments on both sides of this topic, analytic TV punters have created the need for this, scrutinizing every decision the ref makes, the ref can only give what he sees so Im sitting on the fence with the opinion of lets wait and see, if they can get it to work great, if it fails then back to what we already have.
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The Annexe
post Jan 17 2018, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (EltonblueS @ Jan 17 2018, 08:49 PM) *
QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 17 2018, 07:54 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 17 2018, 06:48 PM) *
QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 17 2018, 05:45 PM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Jan 17 2018, 03:20 PM) *
What VAR does is it gives you the correct decision. No point in having a faster game decided by incorrect decisions because people can’t wait a few seconds.

Most decisions are a matter of opinion (or interpretation), not fact. And you'll find it will become a matter of minutes, not seconds. Fortunately it'll never reach non-league (at least in my lifetime). smile.gif

Won't get down to our level for yonks, it took us years to get the sprays for marking 10 yards for free kicks. I personally think it'll get faster as they get used to using it. Can't see any decision taking minutes. A lot of decisions on Sky games are obvious with one replay.

Whether it's opinion or fact, in games where VAR is used it's an informed decision backed by technology, and not just a split-second call by a referee who sees an incident once at full speed, or partially sees something, or maybe doesn't even see it at all.

I doubt it will ever get down to our level. It's a 'made for tv audience' thing. I like your optimism, but I fear you're going to be disappointed with the consequences long term.


what level will that be I wonder ? there are good arguments on both sides of this topic, analytic TV punters have created the need for this, scrutinizing every decision the ref makes, the ref can only give what he sees so Im sitting on the fence with the opinion of lets wait and see, if they can get it to work great, if it fails then back to what we already have.

But like all 'progress' there will be no 'falling back to the status quo'. I suspect it'll rear its head at the World Cup or European Nations Cup, where tv audiences are paramount, and then devolve to the Premier Leagues around Europe. For League one and below, forget it smile.gif.


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Lobster
post Jan 17 2018, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (The Annexe @ Jan 17 2018, 02:56 PM) *
QUOTE (Lobster @ Jan 17 2018, 01:00 PM) *
I still think this will not go as smoothly as some people assume it will.

It won't. Every time there is a controversy (covered by tv) then VAR will be used to 'improve' things. It's a very short step to becoming a stop-start game with every major tackle/foul or incident being reviewed. TV viewers won't care, for 'live' fans it'll be awful. It will become another example of the 'Law of Unintended Consequences'.


It looks like the Chelsea v Norwich game tonight has proved the point.

I fear that more often than not, VAR is only going to lead to even more tedious pontificating over decisions. Refs are actually going to find themselves under even more pressure.
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Che Guevara
post Jan 18 2018, 07:24 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42727331


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Lobster
post Feb 6 2018, 09:51 PM
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I had to laugh at Mark Lawrenson and Jermaine Jenas "analysing" the two Spurs penalties on Sunday and making head nor tail of them, then Lawrenson concluding that this is why we need to get VAR in now. Why, so refs can do what you've just done? Watch the same incident 50 times from every angle and still not have a clue what the correct decision was?

Nah, I'm definitely against it now. Maybe one day well into the future when everything else about the game is fine, we can consider it, but there are too many other basic cultural problems with the game. We've already got players making 'TV' gestures at refs now. We talk far too much about referees. It was a soft penalty Spurs got at the end of the game, but more importantly, Liverpool defend like SH*TE. They've spent £75m for a centre half to do an air shot in the last minute of the game, and if a penalty hadn't been given they would probably still have found a way to concede from that attack.

Refs make mistakes, take it on the chin and move on. The better teams still win games.
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