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> The NHS
3mm
post Feb 10 2017, 06:12 PM
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There's so much going wrong with the NHS, as reported on all sorts of media, that it must be totally embarrassing to try and defend what the Conservatives are doing. Jeremy Hunt looks pitiful on tv and should go, and hopefully the balance of power will shift at the next election. Someone has to fight for the NHS. Clearly it's failing terribly under the current lot.


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Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 11 2017, 09:58 AM
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QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 10 2017, 06:12 PM) *
There's so much going wrong with the NHS, as reported on all sorts of media, that it must be totally embarrassing to try and defend what the Conservatives are doing. Jeremy Hunt looks pitiful on tv and should go, and hopefully the balance of power will shift at the next election. Someone has to fight for the NHS. Clearly it's failing terribly under the current lot.

Too many managers, and "targets" get rid of both, the NHS has/and never had /or never will have enough money under both governments.


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Derry Blue
post Feb 13 2017, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 11 2017, 09:58 AM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 10 2017, 06:12 PM) *
There's so much going wrong with the NHS, as reported on all sorts of media, that it must be totally embarrassing to try and defend what the Conservatives are doing. Jeremy Hunt looks pitiful on tv and should go, and hopefully the balance of power will shift at the next election. Someone has to fight for the NHS. Clearly it's failing terribly under the current lot.

Too many managers, and "targets" get rid of both, the NHS has/and never had /or never will have enough money under both governments.

I love the way you keep rising to the challenge (or should it be bait). I've given up trying to argue (reason) with the lefties on this board. I know I should keep trying but they wear you down. Their arguments don't hold water as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose you've got to admire their unshakeable faith in Jeremy & Dianne (I've got a headache) Abbott.
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Neil Fishers Big...
post Feb 14 2017, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Feb 13 2017, 09:45 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Feb 11 2017, 09:58 AM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Feb 10 2017, 06:12 PM) *
There's so much going wrong with the NHS, as reported on all sorts of media, that it must be totally embarrassing to try and defend what the Conservatives are doing. Jeremy Hunt looks pitiful on tv and should go, and hopefully the balance of power will shift at the next election. Someone has to fight for the NHS. Clearly it's failing terribly under the current lot.

Too many managers, and "targets" get rid of both, the NHS has/and never had /or never will have enough money under both governments.

I love the way you keep rising to the challenge (or should it be bait). I've given up trying to argue (reason) with the lefties on this board. I know I should keep trying but they wear you down. Their arguments don't hold water as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose you've got to admire their unshakeable faith in Jeremy & Dianne (I've got a headache) Abbott.

Well DB, you have to give them something to do! biggrin.gif


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bluesince72
post Feb 14 2017, 01:41 PM
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QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Feb 13 2017, 09:45 AM) *
I love the way you keep rising to the challenge (or should it be bait). I've given up trying to argue (reason) with the lefties on this board. I know I should keep trying but they wear you down. Their arguments don't hold water as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose you've got to admire their unshakeable faith in Jeremy & Dianne (I've got a headache) Abbott.


It is not surprising that you find left wing arguments unpersuasive DB, given that you support the far right Tory party. However, putting party allegiance and any left/right ideological divides to one side, surely you cannot think the current state of the NHS to be acceptable?

Lets be honest the dire state of the NHS finances today is the fault of BOTH parties. The Tories introduced incoherent neoliberal dogma into the NHS back in the 1980s, but this was taken up with great gusto and enthusiasm by Blair’s New Labour, particularly in their extensive use of PFI financing of new builds. PFI is surely the most imbecilic idea in the history of public finance, costing many multiples of the cost of the government taking on debt lending in the money markets. The patchwork quilt of Trusts, which contain many purchasers of services, equipment and medicine, and many providers, that is the aping of free market competition has been shown to be a catastrophe for heath care in the UK. These markets are in reality quasi markets, they are less efficient than central purchasing and allocation of resources. Large purchasers have the ability to extract better prices from suppliers, particularly in a public service the size of the NHS.

What is needed is the recognition that the NHS is a PUBLIC SERVICE, concerned only with providing the best health service at the best possible price, it is NOT a business. Its current funding crisis could be alleviated to a large degree if the government took ALL PFI debts off all NHS trusts and transferred the debt to the government (add it to the national debt) . Following that they need to pass a Reinstate the NHS Bill, and begin to reintegrate the numerous trusts into a single body, a unified NHS, once more.

Arguments often used by those on the right that we cannot afford an NHS are false and that is demonstrated by the fact that most other developed countries are spending higher proportions of their GDP on their universal health care systems, and consequently getting better outcomes, and less strain on day to day operations. While the only developed nation without universal health care, the USA, spends the highest percentage of GDP on health care, and for all but the wealthiest users, it gives poor outcomes, leaving many unable to afford even necessary drugs for long term conditions. The US system is bleed dry by insurance companies, and has inflated costs because the pharmaceutical companies exploit their market power when faced by multiples of small buyers that are consequently forced to pay outrageously inflated prices.

We face a choice in the UK, we reinstate the NHS as a public service shorn of it quasi markets, and patchwork of trusts, or we go down the US route, to an inefficient, costly system that works only to enrich corporate kleptocrats , and provide poor and expensive health care for the majority of citizens. We also need to incorporate the social care sector into the NHS, its troubles are a cause of the current bed blocking crisis, and private social care varies from adequate to scandalous, profit making from the care of the vulnerable is immoral and often sets good service against profit making as a zero sum game, you get one or the other.

Instead of wasting public money on corporate tax cuts( cutting NI and/or Business Rates is a better way of helping cut business costs) , ludicrously expensive white elephant nuclear power stations, and unusable, faulty Trident WMD replacements, etc , we should be putting that money into public essentials such as the NHS, social care and the mass building of social housing.

This post has been edited by bluesince72: Feb 14 2017, 01:46 PM
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Derry Blue
post Feb 18 2017, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Feb 14 2017, 01:41 PM) *
QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Feb 13 2017, 09:45 AM) *
I love the way you keep rising to the challenge (or should it be bait). I've given up trying to argue (reason) with the lefties on this board. I know I should keep trying but they wear you down. Their arguments don't hold water as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose you've got to admire their unshakeable faith in Jeremy & Dianne (I've got a headache) Abbott.


It is not surprising that you find left wing arguments unpersuasive DB, given that you support the far right Tory party. However, putting party allegiance and any left/right ideological divides to one side, surely you cannot think the current state of the NHS to be acceptable?

Lets be honest the dire state of the NHS finances today is the fault of BOTH parties. The Tories introduced incoherent neoliberal dogma into the NHS back in the 1980s, but this was taken up with great gusto and enthusiasm by Blair’s New Labour, particularly in their extensive use of PFI financing of new builds. PFI is surely the most imbecilic idea in the history of public finance, costing many multiples of the cost of the government taking on debt lending in the money markets. The patchwork quilt of Trusts, which contain many purchasers of services, equipment and medicine, and many providers, that is the aping of free market competition has been shown to be a catastrophe for heath care in the UK. These markets are in reality quasi markets, they are less efficient than central purchasing and allocation of resources. Large purchasers have the ability to extract better prices from suppliers, particularly in a public service the size of the NHS.

What is needed is the recognition that the NHS is a PUBLIC SERVICE, concerned only with providing the best health service at the best possible price, it is NOT a business. Its current funding crisis could be alleviated to a large degree if the government took ALL PFI debts off all NHS trusts and transferred the debt to the government (add it to the national debt) . Following that they need to pass a Reinstate the NHS Bill, and begin to reintegrate the numerous trusts into a single body, a unified NHS, once more.

Arguments often used by those on the right that we cannot afford an NHS are false and that is demonstrated by the fact that most other developed countries are spending higher proportions of their GDP on their universal health care systems, and consequently getting better outcomes, and less strain on day to day operations. While the only developed nation without universal health care, the USA, spends the highest percentage of GDP on health care, and for all but the wealthiest users, it gives poor outcomes, leaving many unable to afford even necessary drugs for long term conditions. The US system is bleed dry by insurance companies, and has inflated costs because the pharmaceutical companies exploit their market power when faced by multiples of small buyers that are consequently forced to pay outrageously inflated prices.

We face a choice in the UK, we reinstate the NHS as a public service shorn of it quasi markets, and patchwork of trusts, or we go down the US route, to an inefficient, costly system that works only to enrich corporate kleptocrats , and provide poor and expensive health care for the majority of citizens. We also need to incorporate the social care sector into the NHS, its troubles are a cause of the current bed blocking crisis, and private social care varies from adequate to scandalous, profit making from the care of the vulnerable is immoral and often sets good service against profit making as a zero sum game, you get one or the other.

Instead of wasting public money on corporate tax cuts( cutting NI and/or Business Rates is a better way of helping cut business costs) , ludicrously expensive white elephant nuclear power stations, and unusable, faulty Trident WMD replacements, etc , we should be putting that money into public essentials such as the NHS, social care and the mass building of social housing.

I like "kleptocrats" - good word.
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3mm
post Feb 20 2017, 08:15 AM
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On the news this morning, 15,000 hospital beds lost over the past 6 years. That's the Conservatives for you, an absolute disgrace.

Daily Telegraph


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Richard
post Feb 27 2017, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Feb 14 2017, 01:41 PM) *
QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Feb 13 2017, 09:45 AM) *
I love the way you keep rising to the challenge (or should it be bait). I've given up trying to argue (reason) with the lefties on this board. I know I should keep trying but they wear you down. Their arguments don't hold water as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose you've got to admire their unshakeable faith in Jeremy & Dianne (I've got a headache) Abbott.


It is not surprising that you find left wing arguments unpersuasive DB, given that you support the far right Tory party. However, putting party allegiance and any left/right ideological divides to one side, surely you cannot think the current state of the NHS to be acceptable?

Lets be honest the dire state of the NHS finances today is the fault of BOTH parties. The Tories introduced incoherent neoliberal dogma into the NHS back in the 1980s, but this was taken up with great gusto and enthusiasm by Blair’s New Labour, particularly in their extensive use of PFI financing of new builds. PFI is surely the most imbecilic idea in the history of public finance, costing many multiples of the cost of the government taking on debt lending in the money markets. The patchwork quilt of Trusts, which contain many purchasers of services, equipment and medicine, and many providers, that is the aping of free market competition has been shown to be a catastrophe for heath care in the UK. These markets are in reality quasi markets, they are less efficient than central purchasing and allocation of resources. Large purchasers have the ability to extract better prices from suppliers, particularly in a public service the size of the NHS.

What is needed is the recognition that the NHS is a PUBLIC SERVICE, concerned only with providing the best health service at the best possible price, it is NOT a business. Its current funding crisis could be alleviated to a large degree if the government took ALL PFI debts off all NHS trusts and transferred the debt to the government (add it to the national debt) . Following that they need to pass a Reinstate the NHS Bill, and begin to reintegrate the numerous trusts into a single body, a unified NHS, once more.

Arguments often used by those on the right that we cannot afford an NHS are false and that is demonstrated by the fact that most other developed countries are spending higher proportions of their GDP on their universal health care systems, and consequently getting better outcomes, and less strain on day to day operations. While the only developed nation without universal health care, the USA, spends the highest percentage of GDP on health care, and for all but the wealthiest users, it gives poor outcomes, leaving many unable to afford even necessary drugs for long term conditions. The US system is bleed dry by insurance companies, and has inflated costs because the pharmaceutical companies exploit their market power when faced by multiples of small buyers that are consequently forced to pay outrageously inflated prices.

We face a choice in the UK, we reinstate the NHS as a public service shorn of it quasi markets, and patchwork of trusts, or we go down the US route, to an inefficient, costly system that works only to enrich corporate kleptocrats , and provide poor and expensive health care for the majority of citizens. We also need to incorporate the social care sector into the NHS, its troubles are a cause of the current bed blocking crisis, and private social care varies from adequate to scandalous, profit making from the care of the vulnerable is immoral and often sets good service against profit making as a zero sum game, you get one or the other.

Instead of wasting public money on corporate tax cuts( cutting NI and/or Business Rates is a better way of helping cut business costs) , ludicrously expensive white elephant nuclear power stations, and unusable, faulty Trident WMD replacements, etc , we should be putting that money into public essentials such as the NHS, social care and the mass building of social housing.



Fantastic post.
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shunter blue
post Apr 24 2017, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Feb 18 2017, 12:17 PM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Feb 14 2017, 01:41 PM) *
QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Feb 13 2017, 09:45 AM) *
I love the way you keep rising to the challenge (or should it be bait). I've given up trying to argue (reason) with the lefties on this board. I know I should keep trying but they wear you down. Their arguments don't hold water as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose you've got to admire their unshakeable faith in Jeremy & Dianne (I've got a headache) Abbott.


It is not surprising that you find left wing arguments unpersuasive DB, given that you support the far right Tory party. However, putting party allegiance and any left/right ideological divides to one side, surely you cannot think the current state of the NHS to be acceptable?

Lets be honest the dire state of the NHS finances today is the fault of BOTH parties. The Tories introduced incoherent neoliberal dogma into the NHS back in the 1980s, but this was taken up with great gusto and enthusiasm by Blair’s New Labour, particularly in their extensive use of PFI financing of new builds. PFI is surely the most imbecilic idea in the history of public finance, costing many multiples of the cost of the government taking on debt lending in the money markets. The patchwork quilt of Trusts, which contain many purchasers of services, equipment and medicine, and many providers, that is the aping of free market competition has been shown to be a catastrophe for heath care in the UK. These markets are in reality quasi markets, they are less efficient than central purchasing and allocation of resources. Large purchasers have the ability to extract better prices from suppliers, particularly in a public service the size of the NHS.

What is needed is the recognition that the NHS is a PUBLIC SERVICE, concerned only with providing the best health service at the best possible price, it is NOT a business. Its current funding crisis could be alleviated to a large degree if the government took ALL PFI debts off all NHS trusts and transferred the debt to the government (add it to the national debt) . Following that they need to pass a Reinstate the NHS Bill, and begin to reintegrate the numerous trusts into a single body, a unified NHS, once more.

Arguments often used by those on the right that we cannot afford an NHS are false and that is demonstrated by the fact that most other developed countries are spending higher proportions of their GDP on their universal health care systems, and consequently getting better outcomes, and less strain on day to day operations. While the only developed nation without universal health care, the USA, spends the highest percentage of GDP on health care, and for all but the wealthiest users, it gives poor outcomes, leaving many unable to afford even necessary drugs for long term conditions. The US system is bleed dry by insurance companies, and has inflated costs because the pharmaceutical companies exploit their market power when faced by multiples of small buyers that are consequently forced to pay outrageously inflated prices.

We face a choice in the UK, we reinstate the NHS as a public service shorn of it quasi markets, and patchwork of trusts, or we go down the US route, to an inefficient, costly system that works only to enrich corporate kleptocrats , and provide poor and expensive health care for the majority of citizens. We also need to incorporate the social care sector into the NHS, its troubles are a cause of the current bed blocking crisis, and private social care varies from adequate to scandalous, profit making from the care of the vulnerable is immoral and often sets good service against profit making as a zero sum game, you get one or the other.

Instead of wasting public money on corporate tax cuts( cutting NI and/or Business Rates is a better way of helping cut business costs) , ludicrously expensive white elephant nuclear power stations, and unusable, faulty Trident WMD replacements, etc , we should be putting that money into public essentials such as the NHS, social care and the mass building of social housing.

I like "kleptocrats" - good word.


I'm sure Bluesince72 has a valid argument, but he uses words that few people understand. I know the NHS as I worked in it for 15 years and NFBF's argument of too many managers is correct, but only part of the reason. Paying agency nurses, who essentially do a care assistant's job for 2 or 3 times the cost, bed-blocking caused by insufficient social care funding, paying private companies excess amounts to do what was previously done in-house (PFI). We saw recently of the incompetent CEO of Southern Health being paid £250k p.a. for not ensuring post morta on dead children (and being paid the same amount for doing sweet FA) before being paid an exorbitant amount to clear off. The Labour government aren't without blame , but I believe their reasons were libertarian unlike this government who will eventually make decent healthcare available only to those with money.
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