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> The "In" our "Out" of Europe debate is now up and , What will your decision be, and why?
bluesince72
post Nov 6 2016, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 11:33 AM) *
And now Corbyn has gone from saying Labour will respect the wishes of voters and not block Article 50, to now saying Labour will block Article 50! It is both electoral suicide in working class Labour heartlands and illogical. The negotiations around the single market can only genuinely begin once Article 50 is invoked, and yet he says unless the single market is safe (which won't be known until the after Article 50 has started) he will block Article 50. Madness, sheer madness. But it is madness with a reasoning behind it, and that is the view that the EU single market membership is a must have - despite the fact that the single market regulations are dominated by big business and multinationals interests and it comes with free movement as a given (and that is even before it includes things like TTIP). Like I have said all along to leave the EU we must leave the single market and renegotiate new trade deals, if we keep the single market we keep in effect the EU. In other words it is 'hard Brexit' or no Brexit.

Yet again sadly my point is being made for me by Corbyn that if you oppose the EU then who is there that you can vote for to ensure that the referendum result is respected - because it looks like Labour have now joined the Lib Dems, Greens, SNP etc in actively disrespecting and undermining the result.


That is excusing xenophobia and you know it! I’m a working class Labour voter, I have a low paid job attained after a period of long-term unemployment, followed by 20 months of being able only to get part time work, and I object to anyone stereotyping me and telling me how people like me feel about the free movement issue. We are all individuals, with many shades of opinion. And as a socialist I have major disagreements with many of the underlying tenants of liberalism, and despise our 'liberal elites'.

Lets be honest this big business stuff is side stepping the issue, ALL trade deals are by definition designed to promote business interests. This determination to have a hard Brexit is, in reality, all about one issue, free movement. That many labour voters and trade unionists are a part of this nationalist, xenophobic clamour is neither surprising nor is it anything new. It reminds me of the London Dockers marching in support of Enoch Powell’s racist ‘rivers of blood’ speech in the late 1960s.

The level of understanding of many people is poor to say the least, TV interviews conducted recently in Barnsley had many people conflating the rising Muslim population with free movement, one of the people questioned even openly stated that he had no problem with Polish workers, it was the Muslims that he wanted kept out, and that this was the reason he had voted leave! Comments about riots in Paris in an earlier post did the same thing. The Muslim integration issue is totally separate; in France it is an African colonial overhang and has nothing to do with the EU.

Hard Brexit is more than just the single market; it includes THE most important issue regarding separation from the EU, its customs union. Do any of these blinkered xenophobes even know what the customs union is, and what leaving it entails? ( non EU Turkey is a part of the EU customs union!) And all in the name of some utopian wet dream about Britain joining the WTO and negotiating its own trade deals world wide, leading us into some idyllic global trading future. It's crazy gamble and impractical. How many years will each agreement take, particularly those with our neighbours and biggest trading partners in the EU? What does the country do in the meantime?

Corbyn has laid his cards on the table, contrary to false reports in the Mirror, he will not block Article 50 being invoked, but he has made it clear that when the negotiations are concluded and put before parliament, he will not support any deal that crosses his red lines, that is taking a principled position, one that, I believe, will get the support of the overwhelming majority of working class Labour voters. My only concern is that he did not mention CETA/TTIP.

The answer to this is invoke Article 50, and on that same day call a General Election, then leaving the EU is certain, and ALL the parties will have to lay out their objectives and red lines for our post EU arrangements.

It is not leaving the EU that is the issue; it is who is competent to get us a workable deal, and not so blindly prejudice that they scupper everything on some crazy xenophobic crusade, which is only THEIR interptation of the reason that 52% voted leave. Anti establishment anger, anti neoliberal elites, regaining our parliamentary sovereignty were all important leave issues, together responsible for far more leave votes than free movement xenophobia.

This post has been edited by bluesince72: Nov 6 2016, 02:43 PM
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1midfield genera...
post Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM
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QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)
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1midfield genera...
post Nov 6 2016, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)

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captain duff
post Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!


--------------------
"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life"
Bill Shankly
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open yer eyes ma...
post Nov 8 2016, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!

Apart from the pound goes down, imports become more expensive, so inflation rises and things get more expensive, such as fuel, so pensioners then get worried about putting the heating on and some freeze to death.
All a bit emotional I know, but it will happen.
We then get pressure to put interest rates up and so the rich get richer and your everyday Joe sees his mortgage go up.So Joe has even less money in his pocket, so he stops spending it on the nice things and more on the essentials, so our manufacturing sector gets hit by that.
Yet still the vast majority of people that voted for this did it as a two fingers up to immigration, but it hasn't and will not make a blind bit of difference.


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dr jekyll
post Nov 8 2016, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ Nov 8 2016, 09:47 AM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!

Apart from the pound goes down, imports become more expensive, so inflation rises and things get more expensive, such as fuel, so pensioners then get worried about putting the heating on and some freeze to death.
All a bit emotional I know, but it will happen.
We then get pressure to put interest rates up and so the rich get richer and your everyday Joe sees his mortgage go up.So Joe has even less money in his pocket, so he stops spending it on the nice things and more on the essentials, so our manufacturing sector gets hit by that.
Yet still the vast majority of people that voted for this did it as a two fingers up to immigration, but it hasn't and will not make a blind bit of difference.

You can't have gain without a bit of pain,as one small door closes another global one opens,all us outers are happy with this situation its for the best long term.


--------------------
George Whitebread I like What i Say !! and ill say what i bloody well like!!

Rule Britannia ! My country Long Before England Wales and Scotland were invented !!!!

"DEVA" The Capital of Britannia ! Capital of the universe!!

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Why I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those meddling Posters on here!!
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Mancot Blue
post Nov 8 2016, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 10:31 AM) *
QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ Nov 8 2016, 09:47 AM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!

Apart from the pound goes down, imports become more expensive, so inflation rises and things get more expensive, such as fuel, so pensioners then get worried about putting the heating on and some freeze to death.
All a bit emotional I know, but it will happen.
We then get pressure to put interest rates up and so the rich get richer and your everyday Joe sees his mortgage go up.So Joe has even less money in his pocket, so he stops spending it on the nice things and more on the essentials, so our manufacturing sector gets hit by that.
Yet still the vast majority of people that voted for this did it as a two fingers up to immigration, but it hasn't and will not make a blind bit of difference.

You can't have gain without a bit of pain,as one small door closes another global one opens,all us outers are happy with this situation its for the best long term.


Financial meltdown and British working families and pensioners edging closer to extreme poverty being the pain... a few less Romanian binmen being the gain?
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captain duff
post Nov 8 2016, 11:33 AM
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Of course there are no EU countries in financial difficulties are there Mancot? The fact that many EU member states are economic basket cases, that over half of Spanish young people don't have jobs, that Greek workers have been royally shafted and Greek pensioners have to beg on the streets and Greek hospitals can't afford to buy basic medicines, that places like Hungary are one election away from a neo-fascist government, that the ECB is in constant crisis and the Euro is the currency in the world most likely not to be here in a decade, I simply must have imagined all of that I guess!

We can't control capitalism, it is why I'm a socialist, but what happens post-Brexit is up to us in many respects, for example that figure of $350 million a week extra for the NHS from money saved from our net EU contribution is something that can and should be fought for. We can avoid and reject TTIP and the very real threat to asset stripping all our NHS and other public services under US ownership while the EU continues to walk blindly into it. The future has yet to be written.


--------------------
"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life"
Bill Shankly
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open yer eyes ma...
post Nov 8 2016, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 11:33 AM) *
Of course there are no EU countries in financial difficulties are there Mancot? The fact that many EU member states are economic basket cases, that over half of Spanish young people don't have jobs, that Greek workers have been royally shafted and Greek pensioners have to beg on the streets and Greek hospitals can't afford to buy basic medicines, that places like Hungary are one election away from a neo-fascist government, that the ECB is in constant crisis and the Euro is the currency in the world most likely not to be here in a decade, I simply must have imagined all of that I guess!

We can't control capitalism, it is why I'm a socialist, but what happens post-Brexit is up to us in many respects, for example that figure of $350 million a week extra for the NHS from money saved from our net EU contribution is something that can and should be fought for. We can avoid and reject TTIP and the very real threat to asset stripping all our NHS and other public services under US ownership while the EU continues to walk blindly into it. The future has yet to be written.

The NHS being constantly under funded is nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.
Its down to our own Government to fund this through people paying their taxes fair and square, you cant do this by allowing fat cats to not pay their taxes and putting a complete halt on migrant workers, who pay their taxes.
Without migrant workers there would be no NHS, we simply do not have the people or the skills.

And if you really believe that the 350 million, is it pounds, Euros or Dollars, (it keeps changing because its complete bollox) will be spent on the NHS, then you have been done.

This post has been edited by open yer eyes man: Nov 8 2016, 12:01 PM


--------------------
Down on their knees
Begging us please
Praying that we don't exist

We exist
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dr jekyll
post Nov 8 2016, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE (Mancot Blue @ Nov 8 2016, 10:35 AM) *
QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 10:31 AM) *
QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ Nov 8 2016, 09:47 AM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!

Apart from the pound goes down, imports become more expensive, so inflation rises and things get more expensive, such as fuel, so pensioners then get worried about putting the heating on and some freeze to death.
All a bit emotional I know, but it will happen.
We then get pressure to put interest rates up and so the rich get richer and your everyday Joe sees his mortgage go up.So Joe has even less money in his pocket, so he stops spending it on the nice things and more on the essentials, so our manufacturing sector gets hit by that.
Yet still the vast majority of people that voted for this did it as a two fingers up to immigration, but it hasn't and will not make a blind bit of difference.

You can't have gain without a bit of pain,as one small door closes another global one opens,all us outers are happy with this situation its for the best long term.


Financial meltdown and British working families and pensioners edging closer to extreme poverty being the pain... a few less Romanian binmen being the gain?

You can't put a price on freedom.


--------------------
George Whitebread I like What i Say !! and ill say what i bloody well like!!

Rule Britannia ! My country Long Before England Wales and Scotland were invented !!!!

"DEVA" The Capital of Britannia ! Capital of the universe!!

"Chester Fan Born and bred Strong in Mind Good in Bed"

Dr Jekyll is and always has been Mike Hunt!

Why I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those meddling Posters on here!!
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Lobster
post Nov 8 2016, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 12:45 PM) *
QUOTE (Mancot Blue @ Nov 8 2016, 10:35 AM) *
QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 10:31 AM) *
QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ Nov 8 2016, 09:47 AM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!

Apart from the pound goes down, imports become more expensive, so inflation rises and things get more expensive, such as fuel, so pensioners then get worried about putting the heating on and some freeze to death.
All a bit emotional I know, but it will happen.
We then get pressure to put interest rates up and so the rich get richer and your everyday Joe sees his mortgage go up.So Joe has even less money in his pocket, so he stops spending it on the nice things and more on the essentials, so our manufacturing sector gets hit by that.
Yet still the vast majority of people that voted for this did it as a two fingers up to immigration, but it hasn't and will not make a blind bit of difference.

You can't have gain without a bit of pain,as one small door closes another global one opens,all us outers are happy with this situation its for the best long term.


Financial meltdown and British working families and pensioners edging closer to extreme poverty being the pain... a few less Romanian binmen being the gain?

You can't put a price on freedom.


Specifically what freedoms do you hope we'll be able to benefit from as a non-EU nation?
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dr jekyll
post Nov 8 2016, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 12:57 PM) *
QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 12:45 PM) *
QUOTE (Mancot Blue @ Nov 8 2016, 10:35 AM) *
QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 10:31 AM) *
QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ Nov 8 2016, 09:47 AM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!

Apart from the pound goes down, imports become more expensive, so inflation rises and things get more expensive, such as fuel, so pensioners then get worried about putting the heating on and some freeze to death.
All a bit emotional I know, but it will happen.
We then get pressure to put interest rates up and so the rich get richer and your everyday Joe sees his mortgage go up.So Joe has even less money in his pocket, so he stops spending it on the nice things and more on the essentials, so our manufacturing sector gets hit by that.
Yet still the vast majority of people that voted for this did it as a two fingers up to immigration, but it hasn't and will not make a blind bit of difference.

You can't have gain without a bit of pain,as one small door closes another global one opens,all us outers are happy with this situation its for the best long term.


Financial meltdown and British working families and pensioners edging closer to extreme poverty being the pain... a few less Romanian binmen being the gain?

You can't put a price on freedom.


Specifically what freedoms do you hope we'll be able to benefit from as a non-EU nation?

Once free we dance to our own tune again ,and we don't have to follow the rest of the sheep and do what the gang leader says.


--------------------
George Whitebread I like What i Say !! and ill say what i bloody well like!!

Rule Britannia ! My country Long Before England Wales and Scotland were invented !!!!

"DEVA" The Capital of Britannia ! Capital of the universe!!

"Chester Fan Born and bred Strong in Mind Good in Bed"

Dr Jekyll is and always has been Mike Hunt!

Why I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those meddling Posters on here!!
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1midfield genera...
post Nov 8 2016, 02:26 PM
Post #488


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QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 12:57 PM) *
QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 12:45 PM) *
QUOTE (Mancot Blue @ Nov 8 2016, 10:35 AM) *
QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 10:31 AM) *
QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ Nov 8 2016, 09:47 AM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!

Apart from the pound goes down, imports become more expensive, so inflation rises and things get more expensive, such as fuel, so pensioners then get worried about putting the heating on and some freeze to death.
All a bit emotional I know, but it will happen.
We then get pressure to put interest rates up and so the rich get richer and your everyday Joe sees his mortgage go up.So Joe has even less money in his pocket, so he stops spending it on the nice things and more on the essentials, so our manufacturing sector gets hit by that.
Yet still the vast majority of people that voted for this did it as a two fingers up to immigration, but it hasn't and will not make a blind bit of difference.

You can't have gain without a bit of pain,as one small door closes another global one opens,all us outers are happy with this situation its for the best long term.


Financial meltdown and British working families and pensioners edging closer to extreme poverty being the pain... a few less Romanian binmen being the gain?

You can't put a price on freedom.


Specifically what freedoms do you hope we'll be able to benefit from as a non-EU nation?



I give this fiasco 6 months, before the 'tide starts to turn'. People didn't vote Brexit to become poorer.
The decrease in the value of the pound is already leading to inflation, which will hit the pensioners and those on fixed incomes more.
It will only be a matter of time, before they realise they have been sold a dud.
Take May's trip to India.
Increased investment in the UK, in exchange for decreased restriction on visa's, but any rise in immigration is not acceptable to the leavers. So no deal.
Simply, Britain is not open for business to foreign nationals.
So May has to control immigration, deliver a Brexit acceptable to the Tory Right/ UKIP , whilst trying to make sure that the economy doesn't go of a cliff.
Looks like she has set a time bomb underneath, herself. Be very interesting to see how this turns out.
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Lobster
post Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM
Post #489


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QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 02:15 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 12:57 PM) *
QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 12:45 PM) *
QUOTE (Mancot Blue @ Nov 8 2016, 10:35 AM) *
QUOTE (dr jekyll @ Nov 8 2016, 10:31 AM) *
QUOTE (open yer eyes man @ Nov 8 2016, 09:47 AM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 8 2016, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 10:44 PM) *
QUOTE (captain duff @ Nov 6 2016, 01:25 PM) *
QUOTE (1midfield general @ Nov 6 2016, 12:27 PM) *
So not being in the single market. is a far bigger issue for you, than the descent into Right Wing Authoritarianism and financial ammeggedon, we are heading straight into?


What is important to me and many other people is that we leave the EU as per the referendum decision in June. What is currently happening is attempts to stop that in various ways (staying a full member of the capitalist club's single market and then having to accept TTIP being one of them).

It is unlikely that there will be 'financial ammeggedon' on leaving the EU and the single market as even Mark Carney has now admitted, although given the financial instability of the EU Euro states it is far more likely that they and not us are the ones facing some serious financial problems.

I would also suggest that it is the attempts of the liberal elite in this country to stop us leaving the EU that will result in an increase in nationalism, although I should point out that if you really want to see lots of very large far-right and fascist parties and organisations that exist right now then look at any number of EU member states and you will find them. The belief that if we stay in the EU we somehow would stop the far right or racism is touching, but it is entirely misplaced given that elsewhere it is the EU itself that is the central driving force for the growth of both.


I wouldn't be so sure, there will not be a financial meltdown, the markets have already, made their mind up about 'hard brexit'.
Every time one of the 3 Brexit clowns speak, the pound goes down.
The whole process has created uncertainty for business. Only an idiot would invest in the UK, at the moment, things are far too uncertain
Finally,. Only completely deluded, extremist and irresponsible nationalists can wish for a destabilized UK in an unstable EU. (And I am talking Le Penn, Geet Wilders and the idiot Farage)


Yes, the pound goes down, and potentially that's the worst of it. The pound, incidentally, needed to go down as it had been overpriced for years and was part of the reason why our manufacturing industry was continuing to struggle and contract. Personally as someone who values manufacturing jobs over service industry/call center/fast food ones I'll take that hit any day of the week, no country ever got wealthy by answering a phone or flipping a burger!

Apart from the pound goes down, imports become more expensive, so inflation rises and things get more expensive, such as fuel, so pensioners then get worried about putting the heating on and some freeze to death.
All a bit emotional I know, but it will happen.
We then get pressure to put interest rates up and so the rich get richer and your everyday Joe sees his mortgage go up.So Joe has even less money in his pocket, so he stops spending it on the nice things and more on the essentials, so our manufacturing sector gets hit by that.
Yet still the vast majority of people that voted for this did it as a two fingers up to immigration, but it hasn't and will not make a blind bit of difference.

You can't have gain without a bit of pain,as one small door closes another global one opens,all us outers are happy with this situation its for the best long term.


Financial meltdown and British working families and pensioners edging closer to extreme poverty being the pain... a few less Romanian binmen being the gain?

You can't put a price on freedom.


Specifically what freedoms do you hope we'll be able to benefit from as a non-EU nation?

Once free we dance to our own tune again ,and we don't have to follow the rest of the sheep and do what the gang leader says.


That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.
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McSeal
post Nov 8 2016, 03:27 PM
Post #490


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QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM) *
That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, very similar to the trump' 'Make America great again'. A vacuous soundbite with no idea about how to make it a reality.
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Deva Chanter
post Nov 8 2016, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (McSeal @ Nov 8 2016, 03:27 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM) *
That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, very similar to the trump' 'Make America great again'. A vacuous soundbite with no idea about how to make it a reality.


And equally as vacuous as the nonsense peddled about "World War III" and "recessions" by the Remoaners.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


--------------------
The first casualty of war is the truth.
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Lobster
post Nov 8 2016, 08:17 PM
Post #492


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QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 06:56 PM) *
QUOTE (McSeal @ Nov 8 2016, 03:27 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM) *
That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, very similar to the trump' 'Make America great again'. A vacuous soundbite with no idea about how to make it a reality.


And equally as vacuous as the nonsense peddled about "World War III" and "recessions" by the Remoaners.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Not really the same thing. One is perhaps a far-fetched argument, the other is no argument.
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Deva Chanter
post Nov 8 2016, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 08:17 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 06:56 PM) *
QUOTE (McSeal @ Nov 8 2016, 03:27 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM) *
That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, very similar to the trump' 'Make America great again'. A vacuous soundbite with no idea about how to make it a reality.


And equally as vacuous as the nonsense peddled about "World War III" and "recessions" by the Remoaners.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Not really the same thing. One is perhaps a far-fetched argument, the other is no argument.


Sorry, I'm a little perplexed - which one of those is a "far-fetched argument"?


--------------------
The first casualty of war is the truth.
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Lobster
post Nov 9 2016, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 11:39 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 08:17 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 06:56 PM) *
QUOTE (McSeal @ Nov 8 2016, 03:27 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM) *
That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, very similar to the trump' 'Make America great again'. A vacuous soundbite with no idea about how to make it a reality.


And equally as vacuous as the nonsense peddled about "World War III" and "recessions" by the Remoaners.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Not really the same thing. One is perhaps a far-fetched argument, the other is no argument.


Sorry, I'm a little perplexed - which one of those is a "far-fetched argument"?


If someone tells you they voted Remain because they're worried about wars and recessions starting when we leave, it may be an exaggeration or even a mistake, but at least it's an argument.

Many (not all) people who voted to Leave can't give you a single, concrete reason why they did it. They'll just use phrases like 'taking back control', 'less bureaucracy' and general metaphors like dr. jekyll just did.

I'm not a huge fan of everything James O'Brien says and does, but here's an excellent clip of him taking apart a Brexit caller just by asking him simple questions and allowing him to talk himself into a corner. It's painful listening and it's not really the poor guy's fault, he just believed the vague and largely xenophobic guff the Remain campaign fed him. It's the same in America. A lot of people are understandably fed up of the slow recovery from the recession and believe they're being ignored. Trump gets in there and says he can 'Make America Great Again' by making these people believe it's the fault of anyone who's a bit different to them, and it resonates with enough of them to be a success.
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Derry Exile
post Nov 9 2016, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 9 2016, 12:24 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 11:39 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 08:17 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 06:56 PM) *
QUOTE (McSeal @ Nov 8 2016, 03:27 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM) *
That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, very similar to the trump' 'Make America great again'. A vacuous soundbite with no idea about how to make it a reality.


And equally as vacuous as the nonsense peddled about "World War III" and "recessions" by the Remoaners.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Not really the same thing. One is perhaps a far-fetched argument, the other is no argument.


Sorry, I'm a little perplexed - which one of those is a "far-fetched argument"?


If someone tells you they voted Remain because they're worried about wars and recessions starting when we leave, it may be an exaggeration or even a mistake, but at least it's an argument.

Many (not all) people who voted to Leave can't give you a single, concrete reason why they did it. They'll just use phrases like 'taking back control', 'less bureaucracy' and general metaphors like dr. jekyll just did.

I'm not a huge fan of everything James O'Brien says and does, but here's an excellent clip of him taking apart a Brexit caller just by asking him simple questions and allowing him to talk himself into a corner. It's painful listening and it's not really the poor guy's fault, he just believed the vague and largely xenophobic guff the Remain campaign fed him. It's the same in America. A lot of people are understandably fed up of the slow recovery from the recession and believe they're being ignored. Trump gets in there and says he can 'Make America Great Again' by making these people believe it's the fault of anyone who's a bit different to them, and it resonates with enough of them to be a success.


The Democrats shot themselves in the foot by giving Clinton the presidential nomination. (Despite the Clinton v Trump polls getting it wrong - they had Clinton winning by a couple of points). The Democrats have ignored a largely unhappy electorate who craved real change by giving them more of the same old in Clinton. Had Sanders been given the presidential nomination I believe that the Democrats would have won (polls had him up on Trump by 17 points I believe - happy to be corrected if I'm wrong).


--------------------
"Derry Exile, he speaks for the Nation!" - Elwood P Dowd 24/11/07
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Lobster
post Nov 9 2016, 01:00 PM
Post #496


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QUOTE (Derry Exile @ Nov 9 2016, 12:51 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 9 2016, 12:24 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 11:39 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 08:17 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 06:56 PM) *
QUOTE (McSeal @ Nov 8 2016, 03:27 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM) *
That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, very similar to the trump' 'Make America great again'. A vacuous soundbite with no idea about how to make it a reality.


And equally as vacuous as the nonsense peddled about "World War III" and "recessions" by the Remoaners.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Not really the same thing. One is perhaps a far-fetched argument, the other is no argument.


Sorry, I'm a little perplexed - which one of those is a "far-fetched argument"?


If someone tells you they voted Remain because they're worried about wars and recessions starting when we leave, it may be an exaggeration or even a mistake, but at least it's an argument.

Many (not all) people who voted to Leave can't give you a single, concrete reason why they did it. They'll just use phrases like 'taking back control', 'less bureaucracy' and general metaphors like dr. jekyll just did.

I'm not a huge fan of everything James O'Brien says and does, but here's an excellent clip of him taking apart a Brexit caller just by asking him simple questions and allowing him to talk himself into a corner. It's painful listening and it's not really the poor guy's fault, he just believed the vague and largely xenophobic guff the Remain campaign fed him. It's the same in America. A lot of people are understandably fed up of the slow recovery from the recession and believe they're being ignored. Trump gets in there and says he can 'Make America Great Again' by making these people believe it's the fault of anyone who's a bit different to them, and it resonates with enough of them to be a success.


The Democrats shot themselves in the foot by giving Clinton the presidential nomination. (Despite the Clinton v Trump polls getting it wrong - they had Clinton winning by a couple of points). The Democrats have ignored a largely unhappy electorate who craved real change by giving them more of the same old in Clinton. Had Sanders been given the presidential nomination I believe that the Democrats would have won (polls had him up on Trump by 17 points I believe - happy to be corrected if I'm wrong).


Agree. Sanders seems a lot like their Corbyn. I wonder if the Democrats may now face a struggle similar to Labour where their supporters and members want a move to the left, but their politicians use their weight to try and oppose it?
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Deva Chanter
post Nov 9 2016, 03:40 PM
Post #497


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QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 9 2016, 12:24 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 11:39 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 08:17 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Nov 8 2016, 06:56 PM) *
QUOTE (McSeal @ Nov 8 2016, 03:27 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Nov 8 2016, 02:28 PM) *
That doesn't answer the question, with respect. That's just the vague rhetoric the Leave campaign peddled for months, and it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, very similar to the trump' 'Make America great again'. A vacuous soundbite with no idea about how to make it a reality.


And equally as vacuous as the nonsense peddled about "World War III" and "recessions" by the Remoaners.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Not really the same thing. One is perhaps a far-fetched argument, the other is no argument.


Sorry, I'm a little perplexed - which one of those is a "far-fetched argument"?


If someone tells you they voted Remain because they're worried about wars and recessions starting when we leave, it may be an exaggeration or even a mistake, but at least it's an argument.

Many (not all) people who voted to Leave can't give you a single, concrete reason why they did it. They'll just use phrases like 'taking back control', 'less bureaucracy' and general metaphors like dr. jekyll just did.

I'm not a huge fan of everything James O'Brien says and does, but here's an excellent clip of him taking apart a Brexit caller just by asking him simple questions and allowing him to talk himself into a corner. It's painful listening and it's not really the poor guy's fault, he just believed the vague and largely xenophobic guff the Remain campaign fed him. It's the same in America. A lot of people are understandably fed up of the slow recovery from the recession and believe they're being ignored. Trump gets in there and says he can 'Make America Great Again' by making these people believe it's the fault of anyone who's a bit different to them, and it resonates with enough of them to be a success.


I disagree that its an argument. It's moronic, scare-mongering stupidity.

The flagrant disregard you and others show for millions of Leave voters is precisely the reason many of them voted that way in the first place.

I usually agree with your posts but to suggest that "many (not all) people who voted to Leave can't give you a single, concrete reason why they did it" is absolute nonsense.


--------------------
The first casualty of war is the truth.
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Lobster
post Jun 19 2017, 01:04 PM
Post #498


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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Jun 21 2016, 01:32 PM) *
If we vote to leave it is certain that the Bilderberg group will ensure that the world’s globalisation establishment take revenge on the UK, and come down on us with much vengence and fury, we will suffer a period of quite serious economic turmoil. A price worth paying for reasserting our democracy IMO...but the electorate may not be so sanguine...

But who will take the political flak for this?

Following a leave vote, Cameron/Osbourne will resign, Boris will become PM , he and Gove have been the ‘mainstream’ figureheads for the Leave campaign, with Farage in the wings. If the people feel that that were not given the full truth about the consequences, they will turn on the Tories and Ukip. Both will be toxic brands and totally unelectable.

Labour will be in pole position for the 2020 election


Just reading through this old thread, and was struck by how accurately bs72 called it before the referendum even took place.

The only thing he didn't account for was Boris and Gove being typical Tories and shafting each other. biggrin.gif
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3mm
post Jun 20 2017, 12:20 PM
Post #499


Lifelong supporter
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The public are seeing the terrible consequences of too much austerity and privatisation. Not enough police to protect us effectively, NHS Trusts being forced to sell off assets as per the Naylor Report. And now the scandal of blocks of flats where private landlords put private profit before public service.

Theresa Mayhem is finished. Hopefully Boris will take over, and we'll have a different result at the next election.


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Lobster
post Jun 20 2017, 12:25 PM
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Just one fool among the shower
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If we seriously hope for a change of government, I think we have to hope May stays. Boris has a degree of charisma and is a fairly popular character, it would give them a chance to recover if he became PM. As it is, they're a government on the ropes.
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