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> Conservative pledges 2015
shunter blue
post Sep 8 2015, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Sep 6 2015, 10:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Sep 6 2015, 12:25 AM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Sep 5 2015, 10:09 PM) *
Looks like another one's going down the tubes. No end to it, is there?

BBC News - NHS weekend: 7-day GP opening 'unachievable'

All I offer is another opinion on here on a far-left forum, I ask questions that don't get answers, and thinking about it,I don't really know why I bother trying to have an honest debate on here, I've tried to put an alternative view, usually the lone voice on anything political,But I've had enough,that's me done on anything political for good!
All you leftwingers can have a great time now trying debate with each other with the same opinion, you can rattle on complaining about a democratically elected government doing all the wrong things, even though the country decided that's the government the electorate voted for,you will all have great time when Corbyn gets in, as you will have nothing to complain about because he will be carrying the far left agenda you all want.
In future I shall watch from a distance,I repeat, I will NOT post on a political post again.


It's a shame these debates always seem to end up with you taking this stance NFBF. I appreciate it must be frustrating expressing a minority viewpoint on here but I think it's been a good-natured discussion and people have answered your questions.

I think the mistake that you and the government are making is that you're talking as though the situation is not our fault and not our problem. The truth is that we are partly responsible for this through actions like the invasion of Iraq (yes, under a Labour government but let's not kid ourselves that the Tories wouldn't have done the same thing), and as a developed nation with decent human rights, we should be leading by example.

The reason the Gulf states, U.S.and Australia aren't taking refugees is because that's not where they are, they're in Europe. In E.U. countries, and as an E.U. country we need to shoulder some of the responsibility. In fact, it's notable that Switzerland isn't an EU country and yet it's taken in hundreds of thousands of Syrians.

I wouldn't disagree that the Gulf states should do their bit, but we can't do anything about that. We can do something about what we do though, and we should take the high ground rather than point the finger. "Can't someone else do it?" isn't a policy.

You mention job and housing shortages, but these are separate issues that the government is failing to address. With jobs in particular, they seem happy to fudge figures by allowing employers to offer very low quality jobs and contracts. Why do companies the size of McDonald's and Sports Direct need to be giving people zero hour contracts? They can quite easily manage giving employees a set number of hours, but the government is allowing them not to because it helps to give the impression that unemployment is falling.

Bear in mind that people create jobs. There isn't a fixed number of jobs that remains constant however many people live here. Everyone living here needs products and services, and therefore people to provide them. I'm not arguing for uncontrolled immigration, but it's a cop out to blame job and housing shortages on immigration I think.

One solution could be a fairer distribution of immigrants around the country. You've said yourself that immigration isn't really a problem in this part of the country, so perhaps there should be Syrian communities round here? A lot of people have a spare room or two, maybe incentives should be offered for them to offer it to a refugee?

The right thing to do, in my opinion, is accommodate as many of them as we can, even if it's slightly to our detriment to do so. I just think that's kindness and compassion, and there isn't enough of that in this world, and there certainly isn't enough of it coming from this government.

My sentiments entirely.

My next door neighbours are originally from Iraq and I would be very unhappy if they decided to move.
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Lobster
post Sep 9 2015, 07:04 AM
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I see IDS has put his foot in it again. What a PR disaster that man is.

Meanwhile, while kids are drowning and families are suffocating in lorries, spare a thought for this poor MP.

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shunter blue
post Sep 9 2015, 07:36 AM
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Cameron has reneged on his 2011 manifesto pledge to provide life-extending cancer drugs to 5,000 patients. From November the Cancer Drugs Fund, founded in 2011 to provide these drugs will have it's budget halved. So, if you have any of these forms of cancer, which include breast, bowel, prostate and pancreatic .... well f**king TOUGH. Daily Telegraph 5/9/15, p2.
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shunter blue
post Sep 10 2015, 12:00 PM
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The list of 26 MP's who, despite numerous requests from ipsa, have failed to repay their mis-claimed expenses and includes 13 Tories, 12 Labour and 1 Lib Dem. Make what you like from that. The amounts are under £250, but these MP's knew that ipsa would eventually write off these sums. That says a lot to me about the integrity of these people, who highlight all that is wrong with politics.
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open yer eyes ma...
post Sep 11 2015, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (shunter blue @ Sep 10 2015, 01:00 PM) *
The list of 26 MP's who, despite numerous requests from ipsa, have failed to repay their mis-claimed expenses and includes 13 Tories, 12 Labour and 1 Lib Dem. Make what you like from that. The amounts are under £250, but these MP's knew that ipsa would eventually write off these sums. That says a lot to me about the integrity of these people, who highlight all that is wrong with politics.

Perhaps IPSA should sell on the debt to a bailiffs agency, like councils do for parking fines. I would love to see these w****rs getting their Bentleys towed away for a few hundred quid debt.


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Derry Blue
post Sep 14 2015, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Sep 5 2015, 07:19 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Sep 5 2015, 12:27 PM) *
QUOTE (Deva Chanter @ Sep 5 2015, 12:26 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Sep 5 2015, 12:02 AM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Sep 4 2015, 07:07 PM) *
In the news today, the UK is to give an extra £100m in humanitarian aid for those in camps in Syria, Turkey, Jordan and the Lebanon.


Cameron's backtracking over this is utterly pathetic. They've completely misjudged the feeling of the public on this who, unlike them, actually have compassionate human feelings about three-year-olds drowning and Syrians rotting in a lorry.

These people have less knowledge and understanding of the things they're supposed to govern than the average punter. I honestly think you could pick a bunch of randoms off the street and they wouldn't do a worse job of running the country. Maybe not better, but no worse.

Worst government ever.


I'm not so sure about this. Shamefully, I actually think Cameron represented public opinion pretty succinctly on this issue before the events of the last week.

The saddest thing about all of this is the fact that it needed a picture of that poor child lying dead on a beach for the vast majority, including Cameron, to give a s**t about what's going on and has been for months.

In the last year we have taken from the EU alone over 660,000 immigrants. without counting other countries.
What I want to know, is why aren't the Gulf States not taking any?
Why is the United States only taking a 1,000?
It's very easy of Germany to tell everybody else what to do, both Germany and Poland have got room to take thousands without any problem at all.
Why isn't Australia taking more,they have more room than anyone?
It's very easy for Corbyn to say let them all in,where are they going to go?
Our young people here are complaining there is no jobs for them,or that the benefit system pays them more than they can earn,young people are saying it's hard getting on the housing ladder,and some on here want to make it even harder.
Can anybody on here answer that question?
It seems from the pictures the majority of the refugees are men, is their jobs for them, is their accommodation for them?
Corbyn now says he will get the Labour Party to oppose any action against Syria, when it seems to becoming the only action to take is to sort out the problem at source.
It's great to come on here and criticise Cameron,but nobody has come on here and offered a solution,what would YOU do in his place?


Of course the Gulf states should be taking more of the refugees, there's no doubt about that - but there's very little we can do about that given the corrupt, dictatorial nature of their governments.

The lack of jobs for young people, and the disgracefully low wages they can earn in those jobs that are available - has nothing to do with refugees from Syria or Eritrea but everything to do with this governments policies.

As to your last point, I have to congratulate you on perhaps making your most ludicrous suggestion to date. Are you honestly suggesting we intervene militarily in Syria? Have you learnt nothing from Iraq and Afghanistan? (By the way, a large number of the refugees are coming from Iraq as a result of our failed bombing campaign there)
I'd like to know exactly who you would use our military against in Syria? Would it be al-Assad, who is a dictator using the military to flatten swathes of opposition across the country, or would it be ISIL, who are fighting al-Assad and the military? Or maybe the Free Syrian Army who have been infiltrated by ISIL? Or perhaps you think we should just bomb the s**t out of all of them? You actually believe that our military, that took 13 years to finish its job in Afghanistan and 8 years to leave Iraq would be able to, as you put it, "sort out the problem at source". I've never heard something so preposterous.

Come on you've got over 2000 posts so you've been on DC a fair while. I suspect you've heard many preposterous thoughts.
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3mm
post Oct 6 2015, 08:27 AM
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The Conservatives are failing once again as net immigration to the UK currently stands at a record high. This list of "pledges" is becoming more and more like an unattainable "wish list" as time goes by rolleyes.gif

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Derry Blue
post Oct 7 2015, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Sep 6 2015, 12:25 AM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Sep 5 2015, 10:09 PM) *
Looks like another one's going down the tubes. No end to it, is there?

BBC News - NHS weekend: 7-day GP opening 'unachievable'

All I offer is another opinion on here on a far-left forum, I ask questions that don't get answers, and thinking about it,I don't really know why I bother trying to have an honest debate on here, I've tried to put an alternative view, usually the lone voice on anything political,But I've had enough,that's me done on anything political for good!
All you leftwingers can have a great time now trying debate with each other with the same opinion, you can rattle on complaining about a democratically elected government doing all the wrong things, even though the country decided that's the government the electorate voted for,you will all have great time when Corbyn gets in, as you will have nothing to complain about because he will be carrying the far left agenda you all want.
In future I shall watch from a distance,I repeat, I will NOT post on a political post again.

I ask you to reconsider. Like you I am driven to respond to the neo-, proto- rubbish that the lefties post on here. They get in their little huddle and slag off the democratically elected government and blame the Conservative government for all the world's ills. Like you I've sometimes felt like withdrawing from any debate usually after a university dissertation was posted in reply to a comment that was meant to be chatty. After all isn't the clue in the title DevaChat. I don't know anyone (outside this forum) who talks about politics with the words I hear on here. So come back, join the fight. Be here for the laugh when it finally dawns on them that their new leader is considered unelectable by the voters. But, of course, the voters are too thick to realise how wonderful life would be in a Socialist Eutopia - they are led by the nose by the few right wing papers out there. Millions of voters with no ability to make up their own mind. Oh that they would listen to the posters on here.
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Neil Fishers Big...
post Oct 7 2015, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Oct 7 2015, 09:04 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Sep 6 2015, 12:25 AM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Sep 5 2015, 10:09 PM) *
Looks like another one's going down the tubes. No end to it, is there?

BBC News - NHS weekend: 7-day GP opening 'unachievable'

All I offer is another opinion on here on a far-left forum, I ask questions that don't get answers, and thinking about it,I don't really know why I bother trying to have an honest debate on here, I've tried to put an alternative view, usually the lone voice on anythin political,But I've had enough,that's me done on anything political for good!
All you leftwingers can have a great time now trying debate with each other with the same opinion, you can rattle on complaining about a democratically elected government doing all the wrong things, even though the country decided that's the government the electorate voted for,you will all have great time when Corbyn gets in, as you will have nothing to complain about because he will be carrying the far left agenda you all want.
In future I shall watch from a distance,I repeat, I will NOT post on a political post again.

I ask you to reconsider. Like you I am driven to respond to the neo-, proto- rubbish that the lefties post on here. They get in their little huddle and slag off the democratically elected government and blame the Conservative government for all the world's ills. Like you I've sometimes felt like withdrawing from any debate usually after a university dissertation was posted in
reply to a comment that was meant to be chatty. After all isn't the clue in the title DevaChat. I don't know anyone (outside this forum) who talks about politics with the words I hear on here. So come back, join the fight. Be here for the laugh when it finally dawns on them that their new leader is considered unelectable by the voters. But, of course, the voters are too thick to realise how wonderful life would be in a Socialist Eutopia - they are led by the nose by the few right wing papers out there. Millions of voters with no ability to make up their own mind. Oh that they would listen to the posters on here.

Thank you Derry blue, surprisingly, at last weeks match I was approached and asked by three posters on here that I should come back on here because of my alternative minority views, certainly with politics, and that they actually enjoyed reading my views.
I must admit I do miss it, so shall consider it certainly.


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Derry Blue
post Oct 7 2015, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 7 2015, 02:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Oct 7 2015, 09:04 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Sep 6 2015, 12:25 AM) *
QUOTE (3mm @ Sep 5 2015, 10:09 PM) *
Looks like another one's going down the tubes. No end to it, is there?

BBC News - NHS weekend: 7-day GP opening 'unachievable'

All I offer is another opinion on here on a far-left forum, I ask questions that don't get answers, and thinking about it,I don't really know why I bother trying to have an honest debate on here, I've tried to put an alternative view, usually the lone voice on anythin political,But I've had enough,that's me done on anything political for good!
All you leftwingers can have a great time now trying debate with each other with the same opinion, you can rattle on complaining about a democratically elected government doing all the wrong things, even though the country decided that's the government the electorate voted for,you will all have great time when Corbyn gets in, as you will have nothing to complain about because he will be carrying the far left agenda you all want.
In future I shall watch from a distance,I repeat, I will NOT post on a political post again.

I ask you to reconsider. Like you I am driven to respond to the neo-, proto- rubbish that the lefties post on here. They get in their little huddle and slag off the democratically elected government and blame the Conservative government for all the world's ills. Like you I've sometimes felt like withdrawing from any debate usually after a university dissertation was posted in
reply to a comment that was meant to be chatty. After all isn't the clue in the title DevaChat. I don't know anyone (outside this forum) who talks about politics with the words I hear on here. So come back, join the fight. Be here for the laugh when it finally dawns on them that their new leader is considered unelectable by the voters. But, of course, the voters are too thick to realise how wonderful life would be in a Socialist Eutopia - they are led by the nose by the few right wing papers out there. Millions of voters with no ability to make up their own mind. Oh that they would listen to the posters on here.

Thank you Derry blue, surprisingly, at last weeks match I was approached and asked by three posters on here that I should come back on here because of my alternative minority views, certainly with politics, and that they actually enjoyed reading my views.
I must admit I do miss it, so shall consider it certainly.

Good man!
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Lobster
post Oct 7 2015, 05:30 PM
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Good stuff! No good having a debate if we all agree with each other. It's worth remembering that opinions are basically annoying if you disagree with them, however the best way to channel this annoyance is to counteract it with your own opinion.
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Neil Fishers Big...
post Oct 8 2015, 09:23 AM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


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Lobster
post Oct 8 2015, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!
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Neil Fishers Big...
post Oct 8 2015, 10:49 AM
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QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


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NEIL FISHER I AM NOT WORTHY
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Derry Exile
post Oct 8 2015, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


Sorry NFBF, but is that factually correct or are you just churning out some more Tory spin? Show me the proof that what you say above is part of Labours policy under Corbyn please.

I don't usually comment on political debates but I have grown more interested in it since Corbyn was elected. Particularly the constant barrage of attacks that Corbyn has had from the Tory press since he took over the party, and - in addition - the attacks from Cameron and the Tory Party shows that they are - in my opinion - genuinely crapping themselves over actually having a decent opposition.



--------------------
"Derry Exile, he speaks for the Nation!" - Elwood P Dowd 24/11/07
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+Quote Post
Lobster
post Oct 8 2015, 12:02 PM
Post #91


Just one fool among the shower
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Group: DC Donatees
Posts: 21172
Joined: 26-February 03
From: Wirral
Member No.: 203



QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


It's indisputably true that the Conservatives democratically won the election. Does that mean everyone has to agree with everything they say and do, just because 36% of voters chose them? The majority of voters DIDN'T vote Conservative.

What's also indisputably true is that Corbyn was democratically elected as Labour leader by members of his own party, and by quite some distance. What's not helping Labour at the moment is the amount of bickering going on within the party itself. Labour MPs who don't like him need to either swallow their pride and accept that he's what their members wanted, or leave and join a different/new party. I think you're mistaken in your view of what Labour supporters want and think, NFBF.
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+Quote Post
Neil Fishers Big...
post Oct 8 2015, 12:14 PM
Post #92


Club Director
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Group: DC Donatees
Posts: 19896
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Penymynydd
Member No.: 2595



QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


It's indisputably true that the Conservatives democratically won the election. Does that mean everyone has to agree with everything they say and do, just because 36% of voters chose them? The majority of voters DIDN'T vote Conservative.

What's also indisputably true is that Corbyn was democratically elected as Labour leader by members of his own party, and by quite some distance. What's not helping Labour at the moment is the amount of bickering going on within the party itself. Labour MPs who don't like him need to either swallow their pride and accept that he's what their members wanted, or leave and join a different/new party. I think you're mistaken in your view of what Labour supporters want and think, NFBF.

I did say "under the present voting system" XWWB, if you check back you will see Tony Blair got an even less share of the vote when in power, no demonstrations then!
If the previous poster would like to check Mr Corbyns statements, he supports everything I accused him of, and he has never denied it!
So taking your logic XWWB, if we get the government we don't like, we take to the streets then, simple, is that what you are proposing,anarchy?
Ditch the current democratic process and make it everyone for himself? Do really think that would benefit every person in this country?


--------------------
NEIL FISHER I AM NOT WORTHY
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+Quote Post
Derry Exile
post Oct 8 2015, 12:28 PM
Post #93


I'm not Irish!
********

Group: DC Members
Posts: 5160
Joined: 14-January 05
From: Connahs Quay
Member No.: 1413



QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 01:14 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


It's indisputably true that the Conservatives democratically won the election. Does that mean everyone has to agree with everything they say and do, just because 36% of voters chose them? The majority of voters DIDN'T vote Conservative.

What's also indisputably true is that Corbyn was democratically elected as Labour leader by members of his own party, and by quite some distance. What's not helping Labour at the moment is the amount of bickering going on within the party itself. Labour MPs who don't like him need to either swallow their pride and accept that he's what their members wanted, or leave and join a different/new party. I think you're mistaken in your view of what Labour supporters want and think, NFBF.

I did say "under the present voting system" XWWB, if you check back you will see Tony Blair got an even less share of the vote when in power, no demonstrations then!
If the previous poster would like to check Mr Corbyns statements, he supports everything I accused him of, and he has never denied it!
So taking your logic XWWB, if we get the government we don't like, we take to the streets then, simple, is that what you are proposing,anarchy?
Ditch the current democratic process and make it everyone for himself? Do really think that would benefit every person in this country?


The actual statement says that they will look to increase tax on the richest whilst protecting those on welfare - nowhere does it say 'unlimited' benefits, or 'unlimited' immigration. Unless you can actually provide the proof where he actually says it????

I had a listen to the news yesterday and the reports on the Tory plan to 'solve the housing crisis' for first time buyers. Well, I had to laugh at this:

"The price of the "starter homes" after the discount is applied will be capped at £250,000 and £450,000 in London - and those who buy them will be prevented from selling them for a quick profit under the new policy, which aides say will provide 200,000 new homes by 2020"

Affordable Housing? Hahahaha you're having a laugh mate!


--------------------
"Derry Exile, he speaks for the Nation!" - Elwood P Dowd 24/11/07
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+Quote Post
Lobster
post Oct 8 2015, 12:36 PM
Post #94


Just one fool among the shower
Group Icon

Group: DC Donatees
Posts: 21172
Joined: 26-February 03
From: Wirral
Member No.: 203



QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 01:14 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


It's indisputably true that the Conservatives democratically won the election. Does that mean everyone has to agree with everything they say and do, just because 36% of voters chose them? The majority of voters DIDN'T vote Conservative.

What's also indisputably true is that Corbyn was democratically elected as Labour leader by members of his own party, and by quite some distance. What's not helping Labour at the moment is the amount of bickering going on within the party itself. Labour MPs who don't like him need to either swallow their pride and accept that he's what their members wanted, or leave and join a different/new party. I think you're mistaken in your view of what Labour supporters want and think, NFBF.

I did say "under the present voting system" XWWB, if you check back you will see Tony Blair got an even less share of the vote when in power, no demonstrations then!
If the previous poster would like to check Mr Corbyns statements, he supports everything I accused him of, and he has never denied it!
So taking your logic XWWB, if we get the government we don't like, we take to the streets then, simple, is that what you are proposing,anarchy?
Ditch the current democratic process and make it everyone for himself? Do really think that would benefit every person in this country?


Where have I said that?

Democracy isn't perfect but it's the best we've got. I'm not arguing that the Conservatives didn't win the election, just that people always have a right to voice their disapproval and it should be taken seriously. Certain sections of the media are focusing on a few people overstepping the mark rather than a huge number of peaceful protesters who are frankly frightened at this government.

Conservatives rile people because they're innately selfish. I've never heard an argument for voting Conservative that doesn't simply come down to looking out for yourself and screwing over everyone else.
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+Quote Post
Neil Fishers Big...
post Oct 8 2015, 12:53 PM
Post #95


Club Director
Group Icon

Group: DC Donatees
Posts: 19896
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Penymynydd
Member No.: 2595



QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 01:36 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 01:14 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


It's indisputably true that the Conservatives democratically won the election. Does that mean everyone has to agree with everything they say and do, just because 36% of voters chose them? The majority of voters DIDN'T vote Conservative.

What's also indisputably true is that Corbyn was democratically elected as Labour leader by members of his own party, and by quite some distance. What's not helping Labour at the moment is the amount of bickering going on within the party itself. Labour MPs who don't like him need to either swallow their pride and accept that he's what their members wanted, or leave and join a different/new party. I think you're mistaken in your view of what Labour supporters want and think, NFBF.

I did say "under the present voting system" XWWB, if you check back you will see Tony Blair got an even less share of the vote when in power, no demonstrations then!
If the previous poster would like to check Mr Corbyns statements, he supports everything I accused him of, and he has never denied it!
So taking your logic XWWB, if we get the government we don't like, we take to the streets then, simple, is that what you are proposing,anarchy?
Ditch the current democratic process and make it everyone for himself? Do really think that would benefit every person in this country?


Where have I said that?

Democracy isn't perfect but it's the best we've got. I'm not arguing that the Conservatives didn't win the election, just that people always have a right to voice their disapproval and it should be taken seriously. Certain sections of the media are focusing on a few people overstepping the mark rather than a huge number of peaceful protesters who are frankly frightened at this government.

Conservatives rile people because they're innately selfish. I've never heard an argument for voting Conservative that doesn't simply come down to looking out for yourself and screwing over everyone else.

Obviously I don't agree with that, but I respect your opinion XWWB, but I think you are just repeating a Labour mantra by saying that.
I'm sure if that was true we would never have had a Conservative ever! Under the present voting system the country has decided that they want a Conservative government.
It is a pity that the Labour Party has gone over to the far left, as a credible opposition is essential in a democracy.
It proved in 1982 with Michael Foots landslide defeat that the country does not want a far left government, and as the saying goes, " If you don't learn the lessons of history, you are bound to repeat them"


--------------------
NEIL FISHER I AM NOT WORTHY
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+Quote Post
Derry Blue
post Oct 8 2015, 04:24 PM
Post #96


I am Irish!
*****

Group: DC Members
Posts: 726
Joined: 9-June 14
Member No.: 11668



QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


It's indisputably true that the Conservatives democratically won the election. Does that mean everyone has to agree with everything they say and do, just because 36% of voters chose them? The majority of voters DIDN'T vote Conservative.

What's also indisputably true is that Corbyn was democratically elected as Labour leader by members of his own party, and by quite some distance. What's not helping Labour at the moment is the amount of bickering going on within the party itself. Labour MPs who don't like him need to either swallow their pride and accept that he's what their members wanted, or leave and join a different/new party. I think you're mistaken in your view of what Labour supporters want and think, NFBF.

Two points. If Labour had won the election would we be hearing about their less than 50% mandate. I think not. And I don't think Corbyn was elected by members of his own party. I suspect many of his votes came from Opponents who saw a chance to consign the Labour Party to the political wilderness for years.
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Derry Exile
post Oct 8 2015, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Derry Blue @ Oct 8 2015, 05:24 PM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (XWWB @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 7 2015, 10:52 PM) *
I too welcome both NFBF and Derry Blue, and anyone else be they right wing or left wing, joining in the DC debates on politics. We can't have any debate at all if we all agree!

DB, it is me that constantly uses terms such as neoliberalism, and I make no apology, it is not an obscure word from someone who has swallowed a dictionary, or is it rubbish, it is the correct name for what has been the dominant economic/political ideology for the last 35 years. An earlier version of it was dominant prior to the 1940s.

I have always believed it best to ignore personalities and all that yar boo name calling nonsense, and debate the underlying core beliefs and assumptions that divide the democratic socialist (Keynsian) left, from the (neoclassical) right.

Now that Labour have at long last freed themselves from the grip of its tory lite neoliberal cabal, we can again see a clear divide between the two main parties. That should make for some interesting debates!

So I look forward to many more, hopefully, good natured political debates on DC.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories, but again I do enjoy political debate, albeit without the obvious lack of knowledge that other, mostly left wing posters have on here, but one despairs when a lawful political party Conference is treated to some pretty awful behaviour this week at the Conservative conference this week.
Firstly, no Conservatives demonstrating at the Labour conference?
I'm not against peaceful demonstrations, but when demonstrators resort to spitting, throwing eggs, threatening female delegates with rape, and even telling a Jewish delegate to "F##k of back to Auschwitz!" does not do the left wing any favours at all.
I hope Mr Corbyn will come out and distance himself from this type of behaviour, because no one will give him any credibility unless he does.


He already has done

You're right of course, but I think people focus too readily on the unacceptable actions of a handful of people. I know people who went and they said they didn't witness any of this behaviour and everything they saw was peaceful. The bigger story for me is that tens of thousands of people feel the need to protest against this government - isn't that a concern?

Why were their no protests at the Labour conference? Maybe they don't p**s people off as much as the Tories!

Which of course begs the question would there have been a demonstration outside the Labour conference had they won the Election? Of course not, Labour were expecting to win the election, they didn't, they were beaten at the ballot box fairly and squarely, under the present voting system, by the electorate of this country.
The people of this country decided they didn't trust the Labour Party, why? quote, Labour shadow ministers " We got it wrong on immigration," and " we got it wrong on the economy" Just two things they admitted to at the last Election.
Even knowing that, and by their own admission, the most talked about concern among Labour voters on the doorstep, was, "immigration"
So,the party lurches left, and quoting again, the Labour hierarchy says " We will be out of power for a generation!"
So do the Party expect to win the next Election with Corbyns policies, Tax the country to death, unlimited benefits, unlimited, open door immigration? ( Even when their own supporters are concerned about the strain that it is putting on our ever overcrowded country.
I think deep down most realistic Labour supporters don't expect a Corbyn lead Labour party to win the next Election, and I'm afraid because of this I think the lunatic left wing fringes think that the only way to change the government then, is by continual protests on the streets which makes a mockery of the supposed democratic election system of this country, and will only lead to us all heading to " hell in a handcart."


It's indisputably true that the Conservatives democratically won the election. Does that mean everyone has to agree with everything they say and do, just because 36% of voters chose them? The majority of voters DIDN'T vote Conservative.

What's also indisputably true is that Corbyn was democratically elected as Labour leader by members of his own party, and by quite some distance. What's not helping Labour at the moment is the amount of bickering going on within the party itself. Labour MPs who don't like him need to either swallow their pride and accept that he's what their members wanted, or leave and join a different/new party. I think you're mistaken in your view of what Labour supporters want and think, NFBF.

Two points. If Labour had won the election would we be hearing about their less than 50% mandate. I think not. And I don't think Corbyn was elected by members of his own party. I suspect many of his votes came from Opponents who saw a chance to consign the Labour Party to the political wilderness for years.


Even if that was true, the amount of venom being aimed by Labour and Corbyn by the Tory Media and the Tory Party at the moment suggest that they are, infact, scared that Labour under Corbyn will give them a fight. I'm talking here about the scaremongering through the Tory media. The absolute horsesh1t coming out of Cameron's mouth about him about his comments over Bin Laden, and saying - amongst other things - that the man is anti-Britain!?? Laughable to say the least.


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Neil Fishers Big...
post Oct 8 2015, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (bluesince72 @ Oct 8 2015, 05:44 PM) *
QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:23 AM) *
I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Socialist theories


Good to see you back joining the politics debates NFBF!

Just for the sake of clarity, neoliberalism is as non-socialist as it possible to be. It is the ideology of the market fundementalist right.

For those who hate the use of 'neo', you could substitute it for 'new', it is a prefix added simply to distinguish it from classical liberal economics of Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc)

But why does it matter? What has it to do with mundane political knock about? Well everything, and that is why Corbyn's elevation to Labour leader is so significant. He does not accept its premisses and assumptions, he rejects neo classical economics. That is not (yet) fashionable, but also not something that should lead him to be compared to a modern Leo Trotsky! Corbyn is a Keynsian, and Keynes was not a revolutionary! While his theories were dominant(1945-79), we had relatively mild recessions, and not one global economic crash.

The implimentation of neoliberalism has given us a globalised financial system, a kind of financial equivalent of the southern oceans, with nothing to break up the waves, a crisis in one part of the system has nothing to stop it spreading worldwide. It is why global economic collapses have only happened twice in the history of modern capitalism, and in both cases, 1929 and 2008, the dominant economic models of the time were based on the very same neo/new classical principles.

You could say, so what, that is just a boring tale from history, the problem is, we have learned nothing from 2008, the risk of systemic failure is as great now as it was just prior to 2007. We still have no moral hazard for the too big to fail banks, unregulated shadow markets (derivatives etc), and a total denial by those in positions of power, that these crashes have just one major cause, too much private debt, they believe that so long as governments balance their budgets over the economic cycle then we are all safe.

It is totally delusional! And what worries me is that, if we get another crisis in the near future, and the balance of probabilities marginally favour that happening, while we have near zero interest rates, and governments still trying to pay off the huge debts they amassed dealing with the last crisis (socialising private debt), then the impact could eclipse anything we have so far experienced, it could be Cyprus writ large, negative interest rates - you pay the bank to hold your money, and bail ins - the banks attempt to rescue ther balance sheets by taking money from their depositors.

What 'recovery' we have had is based on cheap credit and asset bubbles - more and more private debt, much of it amounting to little more than giant ponzi schemes. Bubbles always burst!

We need a change of direction, and not just in Britain, as we might just be sleepwalking into the mother of financial black holes.

A very knowledgeable and interesting post, they say that there is a global recession on the way, so what we say on here won't make a blind of difference I suppose.


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3mm
post Oct 8 2015, 10:22 PM
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QUOTE (Neil Fishers Biggest Fan @ Oct 8 2015, 10:40 PM) *
A very knowledgeable and interesting post, they say that there is a global recession on the way, so what we say on here won't make a blind of difference I suppose.

That's interesting. When the Conservatives are in power, global recessions actually exist. When Labour were in charge, it was all their fault wink.gif


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3mm
post Oct 27 2015, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE (3mm @ May 11 2015, 10:56 AM) *
The Conservative Party has a majority in the new Parliament and, in theory, the ability to pass whatever laws it wants.

.......... in theory ...... biggrin.gif

BBC News


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